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smitmo

Moving to Mexico from the US

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If you think where you live reflects all of mexico you are very far away from reality.

You just do not get it. 50% of of the people are living on 2300 pesos a month and below. if you were in the middle you would be close to that income. Half of the people cannot afford a phone and internet because 600 pesos a month from 2300 (and less) is quite a chunk. If you think you can live on what those in the middle make then try it on 2300 pesos a month. Let me know what happens.

No, you are not carlos slim but you have his atitude. It reminds me of Arturo montiel's daughter, when he was governer she said "ya me arte de los plebes" about the poor in mexico state. NOBODY makes what he does and you certainly do not have to be in his income range to be closer to the top than the bottom. Wake up and see that.

If you lived in the reality you could see from the numbers alone what is going on, just ignore it and it will go away.....you hope.

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From wikipedia.. albeit dated

The average individual gross annual income in Mexico in 2002 was US$6,879.37 (2010 dollars).[30] 12.3 percent of the Mexican labor force earns the daily minimum wage or MX$1,343.28 per month (approx. US$111.94 November 2010 exchange rates).[31] 20.5 of the labor force earns twice the minimum wage and 21.4 percent earns up to three times the daily minimum wage while 18.6 earn no more than five daily minimum wages.[31] Only 11.8 percent of the working population earn wages equal or above MX$6,716.40 (US$559.70) per month.[31] Poverty line guidelines set the minimum cost of living at MX$1,586.54 (approx. UD$132.21, November 2010 exchange rates) per month, per member of the household. This means, a family of four must have monthly funds of at least MX$6,346.16 (US$528.84) to remain above the poverty line; far from the reality of millions of Mexican families whose earnings make them unable to manage their homes and maintain basic necessaries such as food and clothes for their families and the opportunity to send their children to school

article:

http://en.wikipedia....verty_in_Mexico

More information:

Foreign Debt 341 billion dollars (2010) This debt is unlikely to ever be repaid. Human Rights Amnesty International has highlighted tortures and disappearances within Mexico in recent years. There is little or no welfare state and no unemployment benefit. Mexico is one of the 4 worst countries in Latin America for income distribution. In 2007 Forbes magazine published an article indicating that Carlos Slim had a personal fortune of 53.1 billion dollars and was fast catching up on Bill Gates as the world's richest man. Many billionaires were created after the privatization of Mexican banks and telecoms in the 1990s Employment Official statistics are unreliable as it is officially claimed that unemployment is only 2%-3%. A more realistic employment estimate would be 40% unemployed or underemployed.

PS don't be so hard on Mexicolindo she is a good honest person and entitled to her perspective :-)

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If perspective means ignoring the facts then fine. That's the typical "perspective" of the "secure" percentage here, there IS no problem. The first step in fixing a problem is acknowledging it exists. Go to metepec here and they will not acknbowledge there is a problem, but lets not be hard on them they are good honest people and entitled to their opinion. Serious question. Since by far most of the people that believe there is no problem are good honest people and the ones with a chance of making a difference, does that mean we should not be hard on them? Just asking.

Your post further made my point's, the bold print is from 2010 and if she makes over 6346.16 pesos mark then she IS in the upper percentage. Probably the upper 10%. I already knew she was though. It does not take much to get there.

Only 11.8 percent of the working population earn wages equal or above MX$6,716.40 (US$559.70) per month.

The other that the majority cannot afford basic needs:

the reality of millions of Mexican families whose earnings make them unable to manage their homes and maintain basic necessaries such as food and clothes for their families and the opportunity to send their children to school

In the end I know I should not be so hard on her, but when the majority is invisible to all of those that COULD make a difference it's very difficult.

I am done wiith it though, nobody cares and nobody is going to care.

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From wikipedia.. albeit dated

The average individual gross annual income in Mexico in 2002 was US$6,879.37 (2010 dollars).[30] 12.3 percent of the Mexican labor force earns the daily minimum wage or MX$1,343.28 per month (approx. US$111.94 November 2010 exchange rates)

So if I go to the article's source, the same source says for the third quarter of 2011 that average hourly wage in mexico was 29.3 pesos. Average hours worked was 42.7. Average weekly wage would be 1215 pesos - or based on today's exchange rate 0r $92 US a week. And, the participation rate of the working age population is 59%.

http://www.inegi.org.mx/Sistemas/temasV2/Default.aspx?s=est&c=25433&t=1

http://www.inegi.org.mx/Sistemas/temasV2/Default.aspx?s=est&c=25433&t=1

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Localización de Chapala

El Municipio Chapala se localiza en el estado de Jalisco México

Población en Chapala

La población total del Municipio Chapala es de 43345 personas, de cuales 21077 son masculinos y 22268 femeninas.

Edades de la población

La población de se Chapala divide en 17124 menores de edad y 26221 adultos, de cuales 5163 tienen más de 60 años.

Población indígena en Chapala

295 personas en Chapala viven en hogares indígenas. Un idioma indígeno hablan de los habitantes de más de 5 años de edad 135 personas. El número de los que solo hablan un idioma indígena es 1, los de cuales hablan también mexicano es 119.

Estructura social

Derecho a atención médica por el seguro social, tienen 15409 habitantes de Chapala.

Estructura económica

En Chapala hay un total de 10699 hogares.

De estos 10809 viviendas, 419 tienen piso de tierra y unos 474 consisten de una habitación solo.

10147 de todas las viviendas tienen instalaciones sanitarias, 10006 son conectadas al servicio público, 10243 tienen acceso a la luz eléctrica.

La estructura económica permite a 2631 viviendas tener una computadora, a 7823 tener una lavadora y 10093 tienen televisión.

Educación escolar en Chapala

Aparte de que hay 1707 analfabetos de 15 y más añnos, 447 de los jóvenes entre 6 y 14 años no asisten a la escuela.

De la población a partir de los 15 años 1890 no tienen ninguna escolaridad, 12947 tienen una escolaridad incompleta. 5289 tienen una escolaridad básica y 8255 cuentan con una educación post-báasica.

Un total de 2332 de la generación de jóvenes entre 15 y 24 años de edad han asistido a la escuela, la mediana escolaridad entre la población es de 8 años.

I can't find any date on this information so I don't know how current it is. Chapala is a little more affluent than a lot of areas in Mexico so some of these numbers surprised me. ..especially the ones about education.

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Localización de Chapala

El Municipio Chapala se localiza en el estado de Jalisco México

Población en Chapala

La población total del Municipio Chapala es de 43345 personas, de cuales 21077 son masculinos y 22268 femeninas.

Edades de la población

La población de se Chapala divide en 17124 menores de edad y 26221 adultos, de cuales 5163 tienen más de 60 años.

Población indígena en Chapala

295 personas en Chapala viven en hogares indígenas. Un idioma indígeno hablan de los habitantes de más de 5 años de edad 135 personas. El número de los que solo hablan un idioma indígena es 1, los de cuales hablan también mexicano es 119.

Estructura social

Derecho a atención médica por el seguro social, tienen 15409 habitantes de Chapala.

Estructura económica

En Chapala hay un total de 10699 hogares.

De estos 10809 viviendas, 419 tienen piso de tierra y unos 474 consisten de una habitación solo.

10147 de todas las viviendas tienen instalaciones sanitarias, 10006 son conectadas al servicio público, 10243 tienen acceso a la luz eléctrica.

La estructura económica permite a 2631 viviendas tener una computadora, a 7823 tener una lavadora y 10093 tienen televisión.

Educación escolar en Chapala

Aparte de que hay 1707 analfabetos de 15 y más añnos, 447 de los jóvenes entre 6 y 14 años no asisten a la escuela.

De la población a partir de los 15 años 1890 no tienen ninguna escolaridad, 12947 tienen una escolaridad incompleta. 5289 tienen una escolaridad básica y 8255 cuentan con una educación post-báasica.

Un total de 2332 de la generación de jóvenes entre 15 y 24 años de edad han asistido a la escuela, la mediana escolaridad entre la población es de 8 años.

I can't find any date on this information so I don't know how current it is. Chapala is a little more affluent than a lot of areas in Mexico so some of these numbers surprised me. ..especially the ones about education.

The figures are from a 2005 household census according to wikipedia

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Arguing about statistics in a country with no infrastructure to collect them seems fruitless. We just had a 'census' and no one came down our street so a half dozen Mexican national families and one gringo family was left uncounted. I can't believe we are so unique.

The Mexican government is infamous for over estimating the good and under estimating the bad... from casualties in a natural disaster or from the drug wars to the losses in tourism from a bad economy and bad press on security. Comparing one city or states 'numbers' to another is just as silly. Needless to say, poverty here in Mexico is a worse than any published numbers and certainly a lot more common than most gringos think.

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Thanks everyone for such an informative and intelligent discussion. I live on the edge of the city and see huge amount of poverty almost on my doorstep but these links and discussion put the scale into perspective. Some of the links I share with friends some of whom are snowbirds and even though here every winter have no idea as to the extent of the suffering. We volunteer and help as much as possible and always wish we could so much more. Again thanks for the great discussions. john

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No, you are not carlos slim but you have his atitude. It reminds me of Arturo montiel's daughter, when he was governer she said "ya me arte de los plebes" about the poor in mexico state. NOBODY makes what he does and you certainly do not have to be in his income range to be closer to the top than the bottom. Wake up and see that.

If you lived in the reality you could see from the numbers alone what is going on, just ignore it and it will go away.....you hope.

First... please, don´t offend me... I will never refer to my people as plebes.. seems like a very common offense in the state of Mexico by doughter of the Atlacomulco´s clan.. not my line at all. I am not saying anything about your attitude and the Mexico you are showing.

What I am doin g is showing you that the rest of the country works hard to get things, that we have a chance, that we are not all in need of food, housing and medicines, there is a working MIDDLE class here.

I do not ignore the poverty of my country as you could see on post num. 17. I work for a living and I pay my taxes, I fulfill my rights and obligations. I also have to raise a family the best I can in a poor third world country, wich is probably harder than do it in a country where you have tons of supporting programms for the goverment. I have a son with especial needs that are not cover by ANY insurance, so I have to work hard to get him the best I can...

So please before judging me.... I invite you to meet me and to meet my "secure percentaje".

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My attitude there is nothing wrong with. I am showing the facts you are denying them. If more people were honest on the facts something might start to get done. Why would it be considerd it a bad attitude to care about the poor? You are afraid the gringos will see the facts? The facts are not hidden even though many here try to keep them so.

You are missing the point again:

Only 11.8 percent of the working population earn wages equal or above MX$6,716.40 (US$559.70) per month.

If you make 6,716 pesos a month or more you are in the upper 11.8% so that DOES put you in the "secure" group. Not secure in my eyes, but by that I posted. If you are making exactly 6,716.39 that means only 11.8 percent of the people are making more than you. Where does that put you???? I am not saying you are rich, just that only 11.8% are making more than 6,716.00. I do not consider that a livable income for a family, but that is not the point. The point is also that many in the upper 10% do not have a good family supporting income.

I think people SHOULD be able to see the problem here, nobody will admit there are so many making so little. It's very obvious, most of the attitudes are "I made it, let them try".

How dare I show the true figures on poverty here, how "un mexican" of me.

I am just a bleeding heart liberal when it comes to this, I do not think this makes me any less of a mexican.

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Am I denaying the facts?????? I wrotte here twice that I know how poor is my country. I am showing THE WORLD (not the "gringos", I am not selective or disrespectull) that not all mexicans are poor. Those are MY facts as mexican... Sorry I can not denay what I am...

Why would I be affraid of the world know in the facts of Mexico or especially Americans? Are they going to drop a nuclear bomb on thier poor neigboor?

And BTW yes sometimes I make less than $6,716 (so I am below the 11.8%) pesos a mounth, but in this mexican home there are 2 salaries (as in most). So start doing the maths and you will have a livable family.

And talking about stadictics, when you wrotte: I could take pictures of how people get electricity, they go on top of buildings or climb poles and hang electrical cables accross the lines. The majority do that here, some have deals with electricity workers to hang the wires and they pay them 100 pesos or something like that a month Where you talking about the 2.1% of the population of the "Estado de Mexico" that doesn´t have electricity?

A litlle map:

http://www2.inegi.org.mx/sistemas/mapatematicomexicocifras3d/default.aspx?e=0&m=0&src=0&sec=M&ind=3114006001&enn=Estados%20Unidos%20Mexicanos&ani=2010

I know people is making a little money here, that´s why the migrate, that´s why the commit crimes... I DO know the reality. But there is also the other side of the mirror!!! I pay a lot of taxes to help poverty in Mexico, but poor people also have to be tought how to help themselves, and hanging on the CFE cables is not the way....

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Yes, I know you have a liivable family. About 90% of upper 10% and getting to the lower 50% it's even worse.

I do not condone hanging on the cables especially because it affects those of us that acually pay. When the power is completely out they will fix it, iin a few days, and it's out a lot. The power is low a lot of the times and CFE will only tell you to get everyone that is hanging on the cables off and you will have better power. That's not my job. It's an excuse for them to not do anything though. The power is usually out 10-15% of the time, it's low most of the time.

Iknow all about the migration and have stories but that does not belong here. My parents went when I was small.

Everyone that works a legitimate job pays taxes but I think you know as well as I that money rarely makes it down to the poor. Back to Montiel as an example. When he was governor my brother in law had a brother working for montiel. He was the chauffer for montiel's family, not montiel himself. He was not educated, just in the right place. He bought houses for my brother in law and his family (his wife is my wife's younger sister), other family members, his parents. He bought a fleet of trucks and went into business with one brother. He bought cars for many of his family members. He bought a section of land in this pueblo and built many houses. All on a chauffer's pay.

I mentioned the police officer, the state of mexico, that is a friend of the family in another thread. He has full pay and does not have to go to work because he knows the right people. He is by far not the only one. So most of the money does not make it to the poor, very little.

Maybe SR Presidente should come to these pueblos and see how many do not have electricity, I believe very little that comes out. Saturday we were at a wedding of one of the wife's cousin's and they had not electricity and a dirt floor. Candles were everywhere. Lets say that is correct though, even though I do not believe it, mexico state is by far the most populated with over 15 million 1n 2010. That 2.1% would mean over 317,000 without electriciity and that would be in pueblos like where I live. You have to admit even that is a lot.

I'm not sure how they can be taught to help themselves. About half of the people are making minimum, that means there are a lot of jobs paying minimum. Can they take another job working another 9-10 hours a day 6 days a week? Can they find higher paying jobs? Not if the wages are not being paid. So What can you teach them? How to survive on 1300 pesos a month? Maybe raise the minimum wage? I don't have the answers, I just know the first step step is acknowliging the problems.

One thing is that there companies are selling producets in the us and paying at least minimum wage there which probably comes to between 800-900 pesos a day and time and a half for working past 8 hours. Most are making plenty of money. Believe it or not there are a lot of places here selling the same stuff for close to the same price and paying te 60 pesos a day salary. Guess how much money they are making, no wonder so many companies from the us want to come here. Much higher profit margine.

So mexicolindo I am sure you are a nice person and we probably agree on a lot of stuff but in many ways things are set up for many not to succeed. Mexico is far more oriented toward businesses than people. I am passionate in my old age though I guess about these things, I worry about people more than I used to. So don't think too badly of me, I only care about our people.

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I perfectly understand your concerns about the situation of the country, and I share your opinion. There are many many many things that has to change in order to improve live quality, some are moving some are not. I think the first step would be based on childhood, better eduaction! But of corse that takes us to an other inherited problem, the leader of the system... and I could go on and on, and on... The example that you wrotte about Montiel is a classic, As I told you before, you also have to carry with the very heavy stone of the Atlacomulco group. Since Jalisco has been governated by a different party, for so long (wich I´m not saying is better, just different...) I got to see things from a different prospective,,, You are stuck on a systme that probably worked 60 years ago... not working now at all! Agree. The worst part here is that people thinks that coming back to the all days will make things better.

Toltepecano, I also care about my own people, it makes truly sad that mexicans lives in poverty, but at the same time I have to strugle raising my family, trying to give my kids a better chance, a better education, deeper values, so they have the tools to make the change, probably... I want them to understand and to be concient that realty involves everything that is around: Mercedes Benz, Audis, public ransportation, taxis, bikes, people walking, people beggin... etc...

I agree with you defanatly on that point, been knowing the problem will make the first step to improve things, and that´s why I ry to do every day. I belive that making our kids with conscious of realty will bring better mexicans in the future..

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These two have good heads on their shoulders and I am enjoying their intelligent and very civil conversation. It is about Mexico, but the concepts are applicable elsewhere.

Well done!

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Well said Mexicolindo. I think mexico state lags behind many other states such as jalisco, looking at the streets, etc. makes it pretty obvious. The bad thing is that we are the most populated state and it affects a huge portion. I do know know and understand your strugles in raising a family, especially doing it the right way as you appear to be doing. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I will apologize to you about my abrasiveness and the fire behind it, but sometimes it takes that fire and abrasiveness to be heard. I will not apoligize for the sentiment though, I think you understand. I do wish you and your family the best, viva mexico! Viva la gente!

Thak you RV, I know I can be very abrasive but it stems from passion and not anything personal. I agree the concepts are applicable elsewhere. Saludos a todos.

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Thank you RV and Toltepecano, yes, I know The State of Mexico and the whole area (let´s say is central Mexico), and I agree with you I can almost say that reflects the true facts about the country... Jalisco, Colima, Aguascalientes, Guanajuato and Queretaro is a different story, (and even the northen states) are a different story, but we still belonging to the reality of the country. Thank for the apologies, they are welcome, but you don´t have to.. I respect your opinion I understand how you feel, and I don´t take this things very personal because I know at the end this is a forum where you can express your opinions and feelings, wich can be argued as you can discuss with a friend, and at the end not hard feelings about it. I apoligize too, I had a bad attitude in some comments, I also get a little passionate on defending my opinions and my beliefs, I´m tough girl ;), And as you do, I also love my country deeply with the good and the bad, I wish it would be a more equal and fair place, where all of us, mexicans, would have the same opportunities, I wish I´ll be around whenever it happens, we have to get the tools because we certanlty have the spirt, the joy for life and the desire for making Mexico the great country that we deserve.

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Toltepeceno and Mexico Lindo,

I enjoyed reading all your posts. You both love your country but have chosen to emphasize different aspects within it.

Mexico Lindo you want people to know that Mexico is more than just poverty and that there is opportunity for progress. I have learned that in Mexico there exists a rich culture of art, literature, gastronomy etc…. I am totally blown away by the diverse styles of architecture Mexico has to offer.

Toltepeceno I understand your angst as well. It is good for us to be reminded of the situation of the very poor. They should be treated with dignity and not swept under the rug as if their suffering does not matter. Making your points to a mainly Anglo forum will encourage them to get more involved and help the commuities in which they live. A lot of them are involved in charity work and hopefully more could be encouraged to help. I look forward to being able to help when I move to Chapala.

Some say that foreigners come to Mexico for the affordable living, and this may be true, but after a short time they end up falling in love with the people and the culture. Mexicans are very noble, and hard working, but above all you know how to enjoy life. “Como Mexico no hay dos,” and that is something we can all agree on!

Saludos

G

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