JayBearII Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yesterday we saw a parade and speeches taking place in the Centro Historico of GDL protesting article 24 which amended (or will amend) the Mexican constitution to allow religious processions in public places, despite the separation of church and state under the constitution. I am not sure what Article 24 was supposed to accomplish practically speaking (formally allow creches in city hall?) and what the protesters (who oppose the amendment) fear (apparently they think this is a foot in the door toward demanding religious education in schools?). Can someone enlighten me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Article 24 was already there but they passed an amendementt in December . Article 24 is to protect the right of religions in Mexico but it has lots of rules restricting what can be done . One of them was that religious services in public places were forbidden unless you had prior permission. They relaxed that rule. One section of the country is strongly anticlerical and another section is very pro Catholic and clerics. The tradition of State and church separation started with the revolution and there is a strong anticlerical sentiment in the country. Nothing to do with creches all to do with controlling the power of the Catholic church and its abuses. We have the same type of rules and movement in France where the wearing of any religious symbol in public buildings was outlawed recently. This time it was aimed at the moslems but it has been aimed at he Catholic church ever since our Revolution as well. Countries who fought the power of the Catholic church have pretty strong feelings about the separation of the State and the Church. I I was shocked how in the State which is supposed to have a separation between the State and Religion I could not have a civil marriage ceremony in 1970 without the mention of God. Something that is unfathomable in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 It all has to do with the Revolution (1910-1920) during which the Church was considered one of the enemies of the common people. Church activities have been severely limited since then. It wasn't that many years bach that priests and nuns could not appear in public in their garb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innkeeperajijic Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I was shocked how in the State which is supposed to have a separation between the State and Religion I could not have a civil marriage ceremony in 1970 without the mention of God. Something that is unfathomable in France. Not sure which State the poster is referring to, maybe Mexico. The US has no such mention of separation of church and state in it's constitution. The establishment of any particular religion is what is forbidden. The original settlers of the US were well over 90% Protestant and the original documents including the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were conceived from Judeo-Christian beliefs. The original settlers were not trying to outlaw religion in government, but they objected to the King of England making the Church of England the official state religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookj5 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Article 24 was already there but they passed an amendementt in December . Article 24 is to protect the right of religions in Mexico but it has lots of rules restricting what can be done . One of them was that religious services in public places were forbidden unless you had prior permission. They relaxed that rule. One section of the country is strongly anticlerical and another section is very pro Catholic and clerics. The tradition of State and church separation started with the revolution and there is a strong anticlerical sentiment in the country. Nothing to do with creches all to do with controlling the power of the Catholic church and its abuses. We have the same type of rules and movement in France where the wearing of any religious symbol in public buildings was outlawed recently. This time it was aimed at the moslems but it has been aimed at he Catholic church ever since our Revolution as well. Countries who fought the power of the Catholic church have pretty strong feelings about the separation of the State and the Church. I I was shocked how in the State which is supposed to have a separation between the State and Religion I could not have a civil marriage ceremony in 1970 without the mention of God. Something that is unfathomable in France. Actually, the struggle to establish a separation between church and state started well before the Revolution. When Benito Juarez drafted the Mexican Constitution of 1857, he wrote in provisions that restricted the political power of the Catholic church and allowed the confiscation of huge church landholdings. At the time the church may have owned as much as 1/3 of the productive land in Mexico. This set off the Reform War between the Liberals and the Conservatives. When the Conservatives lost, they invited the French to intervene in 1862 and impose Maximilian as Emperor of Mexico. Juarez led the resistance (with help from Abraham Lincoln) and finally won. After Juarez died, the church regained much of its power and influence under the dictator Porfirio Diaz, who used the Church as a pillar of support for his regime. The Mexican Constitution of 1917, implemented during the Revolution, was a continuation of the effort of further reducing the Church's political power and getting it out of education by creating a system of free public education. When President Plutarco Calles attempted to finally enforce the 1917 provisions, it set off the Cristero War of 1926-29. That war raged fiercely, with atrocities by both the revolutionary government and the religious fanatics on the other side. Jalisco was the center of the struggle, but there were battles in many ares of the country. The Vatican finally intervened to prevent the complete eradication of Catholicism in Mexico and negotiated an end to the conflict. Up until very recently religious services were not allowed outside of church property, and priests and nuns could not wear religious garb publicly. You may have noticed a sign on some churches saying "Property of the Federal Government". There is just such as sign on the church on Ocampo Street just west of Seis Esquinas in Ajijic. This is a holdover from the Cristero War era, when churches were seized by the government. The Catholics were allowed to continue to hold services, but only with the permission of the government. An interesting side note: many people remember the famous bandits in the movie "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre" and the line "Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges!" The book, by B. Traven, makes clear that these bandits were former Cristeros who turned to banditry after the war ended. Traven, who sympathized with the efforts of the Revolutionary government, did not think much of the Church or the Cristeros. An acquaintance of mine who lives in a small village outside Guadalajara recently told me that people there still talk about Cristero atrocities that happened 80+ years ago. This struggle has been long and intense and deep feelings still lie just below the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks for the good history lesson. Earlier when I mentioned the States I meant USA. It was shoking to me who came from a country where there is total and absolute separation of State and Church to be married in front of a judge in the state of Alabama, to hear him refer to God in the marriage countrat. It was equally shoking to be given a white marriage license versous a coloured marriage license. In those days white s and blacks could not intermarry in that State, Major culture shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Read all about it here: http://pittsburgh.academia.edu/ReynaldoRojoMendoza/Papers/150348/The_Church-State_Conflict_in_Mexico_from_the_Mexican_Revolution_to_the_Cristero_Rebellion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toltepeceno Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 There is NOT a total and absolute separation of state and church in the usa, people eroneously say it is in the constitution but it is not. What PVkids stated is fact. Thanks for the good history lesson. Earlier when I mentioned the States I meant USA. It was shoking to me who came from a country where there is total and absolute separation of State and Church to be married in front of a judge in the state of Alabama, to hear him refer to God in the marriage countrat. It was equally shoking to be given a white marriage license versous a coloured marriage license. In those days white s and blacks could not intermarry in that State, Major culture shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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