The Restaurant Anti-Smoking Law

[Mainecoons]

There still seems to be a great deal of confusion about this law, if several threads where it has come up are any guide. The most recent discussions center around the newly defunct Thirsty Turtle at the Perico and now Tom's Bar in Ajijic. In both cases, the owners seem bound and determined to allow indoor smoking on their premises. Among other things, it is claimed that a place with fewer than 8 tables is exempt, which might cover Tom's.

Tom L. talked with the owner of Sunrise, who got burned big time with a fine over smoking, and he was given a copy of the law. It would be interesting I think to use this thread to help all of us understand just what this law covers and what it does not, and how it is enforced.

On the latter point, I am wondering if someone is actually checking places or is enforcement more driven by the receipt of complaints.

On another board, smoking was discussed in the context of claims that the anti-smoking laws have decreased restaurant patronage. I found that claim interesting in view of the fact that Mexico has about 15 percent smoking population whereas the U. S. has 24 percent. So it would appear that any restaurant that tolerates indoor smoking would be risking business with at least 80 percent of the Mexican population and nearly as much with the expat population.

I'm starting this on this board because it is directly related to restaurants.

[artsnob]

Some one needs to find out who you report violaters too, and also get a copy of the real rules..so we do not unnessisarily turn some one in

[Tom Leonard]

I have a copy of the rules but it's in Spanish of course, and although I get by with every day Spanish I don't do that well with more advanced Spanish, like the legal jargon that is used. Also with Christmas coming up I have quite a bit on my plate the next few days. Is there anyone that I can give a copy of these rules too who would have more time and more command of the language to post the main parts? If so send me a PM and I can meet up with you.

[solajijic]

Mainecoons, your percentages don't mean anything. It costs money to smoke. Most of the population of Mexico doesn't have the money to eat out regularly nor to support a smoking habit. Those who do are used to doing things their way and will be resistant to change.

I believe one way to keep people from smoking is too make it too expensive to begin -- same with drugs. Regulate those and make them very expensive unless you are an addict registered with the government.

[rjkveton]

http://programas.jal...o_Fumadores.pdf

This is the reglamento for the state of Jalisco. The eight or more table rule only allows a restaurant owner to section off an area for smokers and it must be completely sealed off from the non-smoking area. Read Capitulo III for the details. So both the Thirsty Turtle previously and Tom's currently were/are violating the law by allowing smokers to mix with non-smokers.

So simply having eight or more tables is not enough.

You might want to look at this as well.

http://www.chapala.c...wtopic=32110

[Mainecoons]

So now the next question is how is enforcement initiated? Are they going around and randomly visiting places or does it only happen with complaints?

Someone posted on the other thread that they thought that restaurants/bars with eight tables or LESS were exempt. Sounds like this is simply not correct.

I used the link and did some translating. The eight table stipulation flat out prohibits smoking where there are eight tables or less. Larger establishments have the option of providing a no smoking area:

Article 4 .- The places where smoking is prohibited, as follows:

VIII. Establishments where food and beverages are sold to the public that have less

eight tables available, and

Article 6 says that the larger establishments must provide properly ventilated smoking areas:

Article 6 .- In premises where food is sold to the public for consumption and

have more than eight tables available, the owners, possessors, managers or those responsible for operations, must provide delineated large and airy sections reserved for smokers.

If this is correct, Tom's is very much in violation of the law as was the Thirsty Turtle. In view of the potential magnitude of the fines, Tom and any other restaurant/bar operator who flouts this law could be visited and cited at any time. Are you listening, Tom?

[Ginger]

Easiest is to stay away from places allowing it.

[lakeheron]

You are right, Ginger. Until the law is actually enforced the only way to assure you aren't going to reatsecond hand smoke is to not go to restaurants that still allow smoking. It seems very hit and miss in terms of which restaurants the inspectors actually look at and enforce the law.

[Guest RevImmigrant]

As we all know, here what is allowed and what is not allowed often depends on whether or not the owner of the business provides a suitable gratuity to the inspector.

And as Solajijic said, many here do not have the income to support a smoking habit so the figures are not representative. I smoke so I know how much it costs.

Mainecoons, are you trying to get the ban on indoor smoking enforced or trying to get a ban against smoking in public places all together?

Merry Christmas to all, even the anti-smokers!

[Mainecoons]

I think if they are going to have this law, it should be enforced. And I think it is pretty stupid, frankly, to leave your business open to getting nailed the way Sunrise was. Especially when business isn't so hot yet customers come iin, smell the stink and turn around and leave.

The point here is that this law isn't optional for a restaurant or bar. Those of eight tables or under can't permit smoking period, those over have to provide a separate, well ventilated area for smokers. There's no ambiguity here, you are either in compliance or you are not.

[Atlas]

Sure, just like the laws in the USA that aren't enforced!

[Mainecoons]

Don't you kid yourself,. The restaurant smoking laws are definitely enforced up there.

[Curmudgeon]

Personally I don't care one way or the other, but it seems to me that a specific bar may not be so dumb allowing smoking (assuming they can get away with it). They could be addressing a need of a specific group. That's called target marketing. If that's the case they won't care if the 80% (or whatever) stays away. Not their target market.

[Guest RevImmigrant]

I was in Houston twice last year and noticed that many of the restaurants didn't have any outside seating. Perhaps it's the heat since it's very hot in Houston much of the year and they have high humidity. Since I don't live there, I don't know the reason why.

[RVGRINGO]

Some states have health laws that prohibit outside dining if flies are present. Some require that butter be refrigerated and rock hard, all surfaces must be smooth and easily cleanable, kitchens have three sinks for dishwashing and rinsing in temperatures that will scald, etc., etc. Sometimes, it is just impractical to find ways to have outside dining in such states.

[jkgourmet]

Arizona has a fair number of restaurants that have outdoor dining. Some have mist systems for the summer and you'll often see heaters in the winter. And yes, the vast majority allow smoking in those outdoor areas.

Additionally, nearly every Starbucks has a couple of outdoor tables, usually seating smokers or people with dogs.

[Atlas]

Don't you kid yourself,. The restaurant smoking laws are definitely enforced up there.

The laws against hiring illegal immigrants are not well enforced.

[Mainecoons]

Could be but what does that have to do with this topic?

Nada.

[CocinaMod]

Could be but what does that have to do with this topic?

Nada.

That's right. ANOTHER thread gone way off topic and closed.