article from the EXPAT DAILY NEWS

[Elizabeth63]

Friday, September 9, 2011

Question and Answer for the week of Sep 9, 2011

By Jamie Douglas

Thanks to all of you who have responded to our call for questions about Expat living.

The question I selected this week comes from Virginia in the USA and is something that is on the minds of many who are considering expatriation from that country:

Totally understand the sentiments expressed regarding the "American Image" abroad. Part of the reason many want out of the USA is because of the horrible way Americans treat Americans and everybody else in the world. Most who look abroad for a place to live are looking to get away from American culture and all that it represents. My question to the present day expats is "with regard to the drug cartels seeming to infiltrate Mexico and the US and the horrific war going on, are people safe in Mexico today?"

As a former longtime resident and regular visitor to Mexico, I feel uniquely qualified to answer your question. During the early 90’s, when we were working in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles, my wife and I would take several months-long breaks and drive down to Old Mexico – to the great consternation of our friends and co-workers. We drove the length of the Baja California Peninsula, went to solitary beaches, slept in the desert in our VW Van, went over to mainland Mexico by ferry, and followed the most desolate back roads there were, mostly deliberately. Our associates back in the States were always asking us if that was safe for us, and the reply was always the same: “The most dangerous part of the journey is getting through LA.”

Unfortunately those days are gone, maybe forever. Some of the most peaceful places we knew are now under the hammer from the Narco Terrorists. From large cities such as Morelia, Monterrey, Veracruz, and Oaxaca to tiny little hamlets, security has been lost. I particularly feel for my dear friends in Pátzcuaro, Michoacán and the surrounding area, which has been blessed with the legacy of Don Vasco de Quiroga, the first bishop of Michoacán. In his infinite wisdom, he gathered the many individual villages and taught them artisan skills, which to this day are practiced, establishing a creative atmosphere and bringing much needed income to the communities.

Unfortunately, much of the state of Michoacán and neighboring Guerrero has fallen victim to the major crime syndicates that are fighting amongst each other for control of the lucrative smuggling corridors leading to the largest customer, the USA. And these days, many Mexican citizens are plenty pissed off at the US government, what with that operation “Fast and Furious” that put assault rifles into the hands of ruthless killers. That failed operation only came to light when one of the weapons was used in the killing of a US agent, whose life is apparently more valuable than any innocent Mexican lives are.

We would probably still be in Mexico, if it had not been for the alarming crimes that we began reading about in the state of Michoacán during the mid-2000’s. But the increasing frequency of violent crime in the region, such as the very recent murders in the lovely Lake Zirahuen area, is only raising the sense of insecurity of all my friends and associates that remain there because it is where their homes and their families are.

But as far as your original question goes, my answer is a definite NO! Why live in a place where all those bad things happen? The number of “drug war” deaths is getting up around 50,000 now. Innocent people do get caught in the crossfire (and in casino fires), from time to time. And the situation is unpredictable; no one knows whose side the police and the military are on or when another splinter group is going to decide to assert their power or where the next battleground will spring up.

Granted, there are some areas in the Tourist Zones that remain somewhat unaffected, but you will have to pay the price for that, and you will not be in the authentic culture that you are seeking in the first place. Besides, there are way too many other places in the hemisphere, mostly below Panama and Colombia, that have what you are seeking.

[Julie highly recommends the blog, Mexico Unmasked for anyone who would like to get a full picture of what is going on in Mexico. The McClatchy News correspondent who keeps it up lives in Mexico City, and he is very mindful of how the violence in Mexico is reported – who is sensationalizing it and who is downplaying it. Check around on the links he has posted and take a look back through the articles he has tagged as “Drug war,” (categories are listed in the right-hand column, a little ways down the page). The best thing you can do is be well informed.]

Jamie Douglas

San Rafael, Mendoza

Where not even that Fine Malbec Wine is paranoid!

http://www.expatdailynews.com/2011/09/question-and-answer-for-week-of-sep-9.html

[Arroyo Grande]

I thought about contributing to the earlier thread titled "Warning, Do NOT travel to the USA", but didn't. Not only are those type of threads not very informative, but if someone actually subscribes to the OP's basic premise in that thread, nothing anyone with a different viewpoint says is going to have much impact.

My perspective on the cartels and the risks they pose to the country is shaped by living in Nuevo Laredo, family connections and working with Mexican clients who do business in the Frontera region and north central Mexico. I try to stay as well informed as possible about the situation out of necessity as opposed to curiousity. And while Tamaulipas may not be Lakeside, the situation here is much more typical than ex-pat posters may realize.

My views are very similar to those the author expresses in the article, although he paints a slightly darker picture than the one I see. I suspect the views expressed by most of the posters in the "Warning" thread are probably influenced by their experiences living in communities with sizable ex-pat/foreign populations. I have no idea to what extent they are intergrated into local communities, their facility in the language or the information sources they look at.

My opinion is that anyone who believes that "Mexico" is as safe or safer than the USA is not particularly well informed about how the cartels operate, the affect they have on the lives of ordinary citizens in the areas where they are actively operating and overall what is happening in many parts of the country. This is a lot more involved than narcos killing narcos and it is naive at best to think that cartel activities don't have a chilling affect on the daily lives of millions of ordinary Mexicans. That may not be evident to residents of Lakeside, but it is an undeniable fact and is why the cartel wars will be the dominant domestic issue in next year's presidental election.

[Toltepeceno]

Well said Arroyo and I agree with what Mr. Douglas said.

Granted, there are some areas in the Tourist Zones that remain somewhat unaffected, but you will have to pay the price for that, and you will not be in the authentic culture that you are seeking in the first place.

This nails it perfectly and explains the sentiment in the other thread. People with family and roots away from the tourist areas know the truth, those that do not.....do not.

[Trailrunner]

Yep, totally agree, Arroyo.

Foreigners who do not speak enough Spanish to converse within their Mexican community know very little about what is going on around them. For some, that is the way they want it and they're happy. However, at some point, reality will hit them and they will be stunned and unprepared.

Like you, I prefer knowing what to expect and having a Plan B.

[Toltepeceno]

Yep, totally agree, Arroyo.

Foreigners who do not speak enough Spanish to converse within their Mexican community know very little about what is going on around them. For some, that is the way they want it and they're happy. However, at some point, reality will hit them and they will be stunned and unprepared.

Like you, I prefer knowing what to expect and having a Plan B.

Well said Tailrunner.

[Ajijic]

I am in fill agreement with these posts. One has to be extremely naive to believe crime in the US is on a par with Mexico. And for Canadians we know it is even less again in Canada.

To think crime is on a par I ask does the following happen in the US? And for those who think it is nearly all narco vs narco, I ask in what world do you live?

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/teachers-become-mexico-gangs-latest.html

Where is your sense of moral dignity, your compassion and your love of Mexico as every single Mexican is affected through higher gas prices to offset stolen oil and corrupt Pemex employees; ditto CFE; Mexicans who pay with long line-ups due to the inefficiencies caused by lack of funds while $5,000,000,000 US is spent yearly on fighting the terrorist narcos, the inability of the government to fund proper education and infrastructure; the fear of shop owners for kidnapping and extortion, etc etc etc. EVERY Mexican is affected.

[Mad_Max]

Yep, totally agree, Arroyo.

Foreigners who do not speak enough Spanish to converse within their Mexican community know very little about what is going on around them. For some, that is the way they want it and they're happy. However, at some point, reality will hit them and they will be stunned and unprepared.

Like you, I prefer knowing what to expect and having a Plan B.

I agree - BUT -

I don't think you can blame all/much of it on lack of speaking the native language. I would agree that many of those expats that speak spanish are more informed than those that don't. But I don't speak much spanish - and am more informed than some that do. On the other hand, I can use technology (ie translation tools) to find/digest information, and many expats - bilingual and unilingual - don't have the skills/comfort level to use - or want to take the time to learn. From what I have seen/experienced, it seems that some people care, and some don't. The sad part is - it seems to be 15/85 percent. But I also don't think it is a local number - that is, confined to the local population - more like a malise in general - TV News doesn't help - why think, when you can just listen to the opinion of the newscaster.

[Toltepeceno]

I agree - BUT -

I don't think you can blame all/much of it on lack of speaking the native language. I would agree that many of those expats that speak spanish are more informed than those that don't. But I don't speak much spanish - and am more informed than some that do. On the other hand, I can use technology (ie translation tools) to find/digest information, and many expats - bilingual and unilingual - don't have the skills/comfort level to use - or want to take the time to learn. From what I have seen/experienced, it seems that some people care, and some don't. The sad part is - it seems to be 15/95 percent. But I also don't think it is a local number - that is, confined to the local population - more like a malise in general - TV News doesn't help - why think, when you can just listen to the opinion of the newscaster.

Max, Nothing is 100% and I don't think anyone is saying that ALL people that do not speak spanish are are clueless or do not care. I have been reading threads (including your posts) and i would not even want to lightly imply that. I does apply though to many, some are more isolated than others and a language barrier can add to it. It's more likely though in areas where english, for example, is spoken. There is more of a disconnect from the reality locals live in.......again there are certainly exceptions.

Some ARE going to believe what they want, not being attached helps them do that. Believing the mainstream media (especially english) does not help. The mainstream media in spanish also downplays it, if you do some research you will find the periodistas have long started reporting what the narcos want reported.

Saludos.

Oh, if one ever lives in the spanish speaking communities in the us you will see a lot of the same. More of a disconnect and different perception in general.

[Trailrunner]

You guys are probably right, it's more than just language barrier, there's a mindset involved as well.

[privado]

I totally agree with the OP and others posters

those of us who live inside the Mexican community have a very different perspective 1.5 years ago when I started posting some concerns about what was going on in Jalisco- and Lakeside, people complained to the MODs and I was told to stop as Lakeside expat residents didn't want to read about bad things happening, since I no longer lived there, but in Guadalajara.

This just came up again on this forum 2 weeks ago when someone complained again that BAD NEWS scared their family in Canada and should not be allowed. The Ostrich syndrom among many expats continues despite warnings by Consulates who are privey to information not known to private citizens, yet notices are continually poo pooed as being over the top. People would rather believe an anonomous expat poster who says- I drove here or went there last year or 6 months ago and everything was fine!! I agree with Trailrunner- it's a mind set that is not accepting of facts.

Bad things happen even in the best neighborhoods, this week a man from a prominent family was murdered here in Zapopan in trendy crowded Provendencia in the middle of the day in front of a popular restaurant where a patron dining was also injured. This is an area I frequent at least 3 times a week - Mexican friends talk about Extortion, kidnapping threats, etc that are happening everyday in what was once considered the Safest City in Mexico- Guadalajara.

[gringal]

Somewhere between the Ostrich syndrome and most people lies the simple question:

"What can we do about it". The choices are: Live with it and hope we, personally will not be a victim of the violence or sell out at a loss and move back to the U.S. That's not the kind of choice we want, but especially as non-citizens, there's nothing much we can do about it.

So, what is the point of these negative articles scaring the britches off our relatives in the states, many of whom didn't approve of our decision to move here in the first place, and making us look sideways and over our shoulders as we go about our normal business? Is there a point? What's the motive, beyond selling papers and magazines?

I, for one, do not have my head in the sand, but I don't think the situation in the states is very desirable, either. They're entering a culture war that I find disgusting at best and dangerous at worst. I don't want to be there to see the end result. It's beginning to sound like the Great Depression for all those unemployed folks and guess what? People become desperate and turn to crime in order to survive. Mexico redux. I'll just stay put with the devil I know and hope for the best.

[Toltepeceno]

I don't think I will EVER understand the "don't talk about it or it might frighten someone in another country" attitude. Don't give them links to the truth if you prefer to be dishonest to them and keep them in the dark. Simple.

If everyone has the "we can't do anything about it so let's not talk about it" attitude then things can only get worse. If this forum exists to make other people's family in another country feel good then have one of the mods say so, please. i was under the impression it is for people to discuss what is going on in mexico.

What you say is NOT between the syndroms, it IS the ostrich syndrom. Countdown until this thread is gone.........

[Mad_Max]

I don't think I will EVER understand the "don't talk about it or it might frighten someone in another country" attitude. Don't give them links to the truth if you prefer to be dishonest to them and keep them in the dark. Simple.

If everyone has the "we can't do anything about it so let's not talk about it" attitude then things can only get worse. If this forum exists to make other people's family in another country feel good then have one of the mods say so, please. i was under the impression it is for people to discuss what is going on in mexico.

What you say is NOT between the syndroms, it IS the ostrich syndrom. Countdown until this thread is gone.........

Neither will I. But we are all entitled to whatever attitude we want to have. But on the other hand, what is happening is reality - and truth should not be dampered because people have an attitude that it is too much bad news.

Gringal - I also agree with you about things being not desirable in the US. But we are pretty much hearing the good and the bad about the US - the problem with Mexico is sometimes the news is really bad - and we realistically can't make a difference - but we can't in the US either.

[Trailrunner]

I hear what you're saying, Gringal, but. . .

Some of us rent, therefore we have more options. There are many other countries to relocate to than returning to the US - which I have no intention of doing.

I need this board to stay informed on local events, good, bad, and ugly. This helps me make decisions on where or when to move OR if I need to move at all.

[Ajijic]

By reading for example about the extortion of teachers and the killing of students and parents, etc in Acapulco, I now understand why our daughter's school had a meeting with parents emphasizing several new security precautions including the cameras covering the parking lot, locked perimeter, absolute times for children to enter, etc. What happened in Acapulco is affecting schools throughout the country.

Similarly, by knowing of the sad events at the Monterrey casino many of you have formed a stronger opinion regarding the intent to open a casino in Ajijic.

We are all affected by these events as horrible as they are. And, I personally want to know and at same time read other perspectives.

[Toltepeceno]

By reading for example about the extortion of teachers and the killing of students and parents, etc in Acapulco, I now understand why our daughter's school had a meeting with parents emphasizing several new security precautions including the cameras covering the parking lot, locked perimeter, absolute times for children to enter, etc. What happened in Acapulco is affecting schools throughout the country.

Similarly, by knowing of the sad events at the Monterrey casino many of you have formed a stronger opinion regarding the intent to open a casino in Ajijic.

We are all affected by these events as horrible as they are. And, I personally want to know and at same time read other perspectives.

Here parents are designated days they are required to be at the school as security while children are coming and going. it doesn't make much difference though as children of all ages are escorted to the door by their parents. No walking alone.

Off topic ajijic, but since you are in a "gringo" area do you get out of taking all of the binders apart, covering them in a special color and clear plastic then sewing them back together again? It's 5 binders primary and 11 secondary here, along with smaller binders, folders, etc.

[Ajijic]

Here parents are designated days they are required to be at the school as security while children are coming and going. it doesn't make much difference though as children of all ages are escorted to the door by their parents. No walking alone.

Off topic ajijic, but since you are in a "gringo" area do you get out of taking all of the binders apart, covering them in a special color and clear plastic then sewing them back together again? It's 5 binders primary and 11 secondary here, along with smaller binders, folders, etc.

No child is released from the school without parent present and after the child's name called on the PS system. Until then child remains in classroom.

As to the second paragraphy... yes. Thankfully private schools a little less expensive here thank Ajijic. Also, 95% of the children are Mexican.

[johanson]

I know I will be attacked for saying this, but Im shocked about how few of my fellow Americans and Canadians speak Spanish, lakeside. My Spanish sucks porque Yo soy pocho de Suecia y Nacolandia, pero hablo un pocito Esp. and like trailrunner and I presume Toltepeceno I am friends with both those who only speak English and many locals whom of course, speak Spanish.

Many of those who only speak English, have a much different opinion about what is happening lakeside than those who also speak Spanish. I still love living lakeside, but I am much more careful than I was 4 to 14 years ago.

Things are very different now, and should you mix with the wrong crowd you could be in real trouble/danger. Luckily most of us northerners are older and dont hang out with those who get into trouble or go to the more dangerous places.

Pedro

El Ruco

PS: something is very wrong up here in Seattle. It reached more than 30 C today (87 F). Im heading to the island (Vancouver Island) Sunday where it wont be as hot.

PSS: While on the Island, I will pick up a new Shaw Direct 605 receiver that is much smaller than the 500 series, has HDMI and can receive the new mpeg 4 compression signals soon to be standard on Shaw, something the earlier receivers with smaller numbers can not do.(The newer 600 and 630 series receivers also get mpeg 4)

[Ajijic]

I find it odd when one compares crime in Mexico to anywhere else. As the article below states even murders are frequently not reported. Of those reported there is one killed every 35 minutes. This in a country of 108 million people vs the US with triple the population. And, if you want to compare crime to a more typical industrialized country try Canada where the murder rate is less than 1/10 of Mexico and approx 1/3 of the US. The US is considered a somewhat violent country by Canadians, Australians, Europeans etc.

And, if you think it is narco vs narco then the article must be wrong as it talks about young teens being murdered.

Here are excerpts from the article:

"Mexico's murder rate has more than doubled, to 22 deaths per 100,000 residents in 2010, in just four years, a period that parallels the drug war. Before that, it had been falling steadily. In the U.S. the murder rate is about 5 per 100,000."

"A close look at the events of a single day shows that, while many victims appear linked to crime in some way, there are a surprising number of innocent victims"

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/just-ordinary-day-of-death-in-mexicos.html

This is so frustrating in a country many of us call home. Frustrating in that some think... oh gee same as the US, a country not so crime free compared to many and to others who sweep it under the rug as if it did not exist. Feel for the Mexicans who are all suffering and have the lack of education, financial resources, confidence, insight to do anything but to shrug their shoulders and try and get by the best they can. This is in a country with 46% of the population lives in poverty. That is 50,000,000 people who make less than $500 a month. Then add in those who make less than say $1000 a month and that is the vast majority of the Mexican population.

[Toltepeceno]

No child is released from the school without parent present and after the child's name called on the PS system. Until then child remains in classroom.

As to the second paragraphy... yes. Thankfully private schools a little less expensive here thank Ajijic. Also, 95% of the children are Mexican.

Here in toluca the government schools are considered the good ones and it takes a good connection and bribe to get in.

Actually Johansen, I don't know anyone here where we live that speaks english. Well, apart from a niece learning a little in school.

This board (and other forums) keep me from forgetting how to speak it,

Very well said Ajijic, I feel the same way. We live in an area where 500.0o a month would be a good improvement for many. Earning 1500-2000 pesos a month is pretty common.

[bmh]

To me,the major difference between the States and Mexico is that there is no safety net in Mexico. I know I cannot trust the police (any of them uncluding the MP) in Mexico when I do not feel that way in the States.

We can discuss the statistic ad nauseum it does not change that fact.

We can also be sure that crime here will go unpunished and that you can count on no one to protect you. As long as we do not get hurt, we feel safe but that feeling can disappear rather quickly.

[Trailrunner]

Exactly right, B, exactly right.

That's the chilling part.

[Arroyo Grande]

To me,the major difference between the States and Mexico is that there is no safety net in Mexico. I know I cannot trust the police (any of them uncluding the MP) in Mexico when I do not feel that way in the States.

We can discuss the statistic ad nauseum it does not change that fact.

We can also be sure that crime here will go unpunished and that you can count on no one to protect you. As long as we do not get hurt, we feel safe but that feeling can disappear rather quickly.

I edited out a comment similar to this from my original post, but these comments in large part explain why the cartels are able to opeate laregly unchecked in many parts of the country. Local law enforcement agencies have been co-opted and compromised by cartels for years and in the north at least cooperate with and actively assist the organizations operating within their area of authority. The murder of police officers in Nuevo Leon, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Durango and Tamaulipas is nearly always narcos killing narcos auxiliaries. When you tie police corruption into a criminal judicial system that is at best hopelessly inefficient and at worst endemically corrupt, it is little wonder the government is not making headway against the trafficking organizations.

In my first post I was not saying that a non-Spanish speaker could not be aware and stay informed about current events. I was just expressing an opinion that the "aqui no pasa nada" attitude and the "I feel safer here than I do in the US" mindset most likely belong to ex-pats who have only superficial interaction with the local community and little to no facility in the Spanish language. It is certainly possible for non-Spanish speaking residents to keep abrest of current events through the media and many obviously do.

[gringal]

I'm not sure where my statement about not being able, as non-citizens in Mexico, "do anything about it" got morphed into "not talking about it." We can talk about it until we're blue in the face. The articles being written about it sell magazines and papers.......and scare both expats and those in other countries. So what? They will continue writing and scaring people, both here and in the States. I talk about it with my NOB friends and relations. They don't like to hear it. Too bad. What is, is. Still, we talk.

No matter how much we talk about it, there are only two things we can actually do: (1) move to a place we feel safer or (2) stay put and deal with our fears. Ignoring the reality isn't an option for people with a brain.

In either case, talking (whether in English or Spanglish or Spanish) won't make a whit of difference. It might make some people feel superior to those who do the Ostrich. Duh.

Those who are renters are in a much better position to make an instant choice in the matter. Those who are homeowners have some serious financial considerations.

Finally: Many of our ancestors left home with virtually nothing, just ahead of whoever was chasing them. They had the courage to deal realistically with what was going on. How do we compare? Could we leave here with only what we can carry?

[Toltepeceno]

I edited out a comment similar to this from my original post, but these comments in large part explain why the cartels are able to opeate laregly unchecked in many parts of the country. Local law enforcement agencies have been co-opted and compromised by cartels for years and in the north at least cooperate with and actively assist the organizations operating within their area of authority. The murder of police officers in Nuevo Leon, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Durango and Tamaulipas is nearly always narcos killing narcos auxiliaries. When you tie police corruption into a criminal judicial system that is at best hopelessly inefficient and at worst endemically corrupt, it is little wonder the government is not making headway against the trafficking organizations.

In my first post I was not saying that a non-Spanish speaker could not be aware and stay informed about current events. I was just expressing an opinion that the "aqui no pasa nada" attitude and the "I feel safer here than I do in the US" mindset most likely belong to ex-pats who have only superficial interaction with the local community and little to no facility in the Spanish language. It is certainly possible for non-Spanish speaking residents to keep abrest of current events through the media and many obviously do.

Well said AG.