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Mad_Max

Slaughter in Monterey

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Cracker, if all of your experience in Mexico has been at Lake Chapala, you have pretty limited horizons. I've been thinking about your post re staying out of businesses that have narcotraficante involvement and I thought of a question I'd like to ask you. How would you know if the business has these ties--or even if the only tie is the payment of "protection"? Are you thinking of asking? It seems really, really unlikely that the girl behind the counter would know, and it also seems really, really unlikely that the owner would tell you.

And it is also really rude that you seem to think I have made up what I posted. Just because you have never heard of it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Well said.

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Cracker, if all of your experience in Mexico has been at Lake Chapala, you have pretty limited horizons. I've been thinking about your post re staying out of businesses that have narcotraficante involvement and I thought of a question I'd like to ask you. How would you know if the business has these ties--or even if the only tie is the payment of "protection"? Are you thinking of asking? It seems really, really unlikely that the girl behind the counter would know, and it also seems really, really unlikely that the owner would tell you.

And it is also really rude that you seem to think I have made up what I posted. Just because you have never heard of it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

No actually not all my experience has been here, we have travelled extensively in Mexico. Some of our close friends have, over the years, been business owners, not the girl behind the counter. In fact, I'd say I know quite a few business owners well enough to ask them, so I guess I will. They have told me about the union problems, so I'd say I know them well enough, since they've told me lots of other pretty personal things. One couple owned a maquiladora, no problems with narcos, and you know how close to the border they were.

You think I have been rude, why, because I didn't simply accept your viewpoint? I think you have taken some facts and extrapolated to the moon. I didn't suggest that you had made up what you posted, just generalized rather extensively. In fact your post would make most people think that they shouldn´t step out their door in this country.

In fact speaking of rude, I'd say that your comment about my limited horizons was rude, especially considering the fact that you know nothing about me.

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No actually not all my experience has been here, we have travelled extensively in Mexico. Some of our close friends have, over the years, been business owners, not the girl behind the counter. In fact, I'd say I know quite a few business owners well enough to ask them, so I guess I will. They have told me about the union problems, so I'd say I know them well enough, since they've told me lots of other pretty personal things. One couple owned a maquiladora, no problems with narcos, and you know how close to the border they were.

You think I have been rude, why, because I didn't simply accept your viewpoint? I think you have taken some facts and extrapolated to the moon. I didn't suggest that you had made up what you posted, just generalized rather extensively. In fact your post would make most people think that they shouldn´t step out their door in this country.

I offered three specific instances of specific businesses paying protection. I did not extrapolate or generalize. All the business managers or owners that I mentioned are Mexican. I speak native-level Spanish. My post was not a 'viewpoint': my post was factual.

Ask your most trusted Guadalajara, Morelia, Mexico City, or other city-dwelling Mexican business-owner friends about the payment of 'protection' to the narcos. If they trust you enough to tell you the truth, I think you will be enormously surprised at what you hear.

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I offered three specific instances of specific businesses paying protection. I did not extrapolate or generalize. All the business managers or owners that I mentioned are Mexican. I speak native-level Spanish. My post was not a 'viewpoint': my post was factual.

Ask your most trusted Guadalajara, Morelia, Mexico City, or other city-dwelling Mexican business-owner friends about the payment of 'protection' to the narcos. If they trust you enough to tell you the truth, I think you will be enormously surprised at what you hear.

Agree totally. Protection money is paid at every level starting with the weekly markets. The big Tuesday market in San Miguel is patrolled by numerous military personnel to help protect the vendors. A few weeks back a person posted on here how their friend in Ajijic, a restaurant owner, had to close as unable to pay protection money.

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Sure!!! It is very well known that many many business pay "derecho de piso" (protection) to the local mafias. If you don´t pay, you have 2 choices 1) You leave. 2) you (and/or your biz) are death. There is a case of a furniture store in Riberas, the owner didn´t want to pay, and he had to go.... Is all in the past now. Same case of the casino in Monterrey. The owner didn´t want to pay $3,000 monthly per machinse and his bussines was burned down. And about the narco money, is not only in casinos, table dances, and adult industry. There are (in guad at least) Narco schools, narco hotels, narco hospitals, narco condos, narco car agancies, and maybe, just maybe... a little narco church somewhere......

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As Mexicolindo points out with a few of the local cases made public, this extortion is right under your nose and endemic. It intertwines into every facet of Mexican life and business. Yes even narco churches laundering millions. I will also add narco real estate, narco watered down alcohol and what we expats refer to as prescription drugs.

And of course look where the weapons are from: http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/08/ex-chief-pleads-guilty.html

From a city I visited for work often. geesh!!!!

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At least some arrests made and extortion appears to be what was behind this barbaric act.

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/08/five-zetas-arrested-for-deadly.html

It's really hard to know whether these men who were arrested are just another photo opp, if they are taking the fall for others who were really involved, or if they actually had something to do with it. I remember how quickly the alleged perpetrators were collared for the events in Morelia in September 2008--of course they were just as quickly released, and three more guys were arrested. Those guys were also subsequently released as unconnected to the crimes. As I often say, more will be revealed.

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We've lived and traveled in Mexico since the mid 90's and been here lakeside for going on 8 years now, I speak good enough Spanish to talk politics and world events with patient locals, my spouse much more. We have known which hotels, RV parks, restaurants etc along the coast were narco owned and which were just paying extortion for a long time. I can't imagine anyone living here with Mexican friends for an extended period of time not being at least as aware as we are.

It's easy to know which places might be dangerous if you have a plethora of local friends and take the time to dig into these things, but there is no label on the door and any business that could be doing a lot of business could be a money laundering operation and a potential target in a dispute.

We used to stay in a place in Mazatalan that was very large and run down... maybe 200 sites but in such bad repair that only 30 or 40 RV's would be there in high season. A few of us drove up to Culican and met with the 'owners' to see if they'd invest a very small amount to clean things up. We told them it would double or triple the number of paid nights per year and his response was 'why would I want that?'... we left quietly.

You can't tell by looking which business is funded with narco money and which isn't, but I'd stick with the idea that casinos, table dance bars and other adult industry businesses have narco involvement in some way. Any place that our first reaction is 'that's a hell of a big investment for what sure looks like a little return' give us pause.

The way the war on drugs is going and growing I think it pays to be using all of our wits to avoid being inadvertently in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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We were told the same thing in the mid-90's about that RV Park in Mazatlan, also the one that is opposite the new Costco on Lopez Mateos Sur...saw lots of odd activity late at night there.

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We've lived and traveled in Mexico since the mid 90's and been here lakeside for going on 8 years now, I speak good enough Spanish to talk politics and world events with patient locals, my spouse much more. We have known which hotels, RV parks, restaurants etc along the coast were narco owned and which were just paying extortion for a long time. I can't imagine anyone living here with Mexican friends for an extended period of time not being at least as aware as we are.

It's easy to know which places might be dangerous if you have a plethora of local friends and take the time to dig into these things, but there is no label on the door and any business that could be doing a lot of business could be a money laundering operation and a potential target in a dispute.

We used to stay in a place in Mazatalan that was very large and run down... maybe 200 sites but in such bad repair that only 30 or 40 RV's would be there in high season. A few of us drove up to Culican and met with the 'owners' to see if they'd invest a very small amount to clean things up. We told them it would double or triple the number of paid nights per year and his response was 'why would I want that?'... we left quietly.

You can't tell by looking which business is funded with narco money and which isn't, but I'd stick with the idea that casinos, table dance bars and other adult industry businesses have narco involvement in some way. Any place that our first reaction is 'that's a hell of a big investment for what sure looks like a little return' give us pause.

The way the war on drugs is going and growing I think it pays to be using all of our wits to avoid being inadvertently in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Great response BillinaBus. We´re in the same position, and avoid all late night activities anywhere, Going to adult businesses, and that includes bars, is just asking for trouble, as is driving around here late at night. The driving isn't just because of narco activity, try horses, cows and rocks on the road.

Quote

You can't tell by looking which business is funded with narco money and which isn't, but I'd stick with the idea that casinos, table dance bars and other adult industry businesses have narco involvement in some way. Any place that our first reaction is 'that's a hell of a big investment for what sure looks like a little return' give us pause. End quote.

A true bingo moment. It's pretty hard to get into trouble sitting at home, and it's damned near impossible if you stay out of dodgy places at all times.

We have never had any problems here, and that includes robbery.

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From Guadalajara Reporter

Casino fire detainees say they didn't mean to kill gamblers

TUESDAY, AUGUST 30 2011 13:32 GR STAFF

Five men who have been arrested in connection with the murder of 52 people in Monterrery’s Casino Royale last week told investigators they did not plan to kill anyone and “only wanted to scare” the casino owners.

The suspects, who federal investigators say admitted responsibility for the attack, said the tragic loss of life was the result of a botched operation to intimidate the owners of the establishment.

The original plan was to evacuate the casino before setting it alight, but many of those inside fled further into the building and the fire quickly grew out of control.

The suspects, four of whom are native to Monterrey and the other is from Chihuahua, are believed to have been working for the notorious Zetas cartel. They claimed to have been subsequently “scolded” by their bosses for causing so many deaths.

The authorities are now seeking seven more suspects in connection with the attack.

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Cracker, if all of your experience in Mexico has been at Lake Chapala, you have pretty limited horizons. I've been thinking about your post re staying out of businesses that have narcotraficante involvement and I thought of a question I'd like to ask you. How would you know if the business has these ties--or even if the only tie is the payment of "protection"? Are you thinking of asking? It seems really, really unlikely that the girl behind the counter would know, and it also seems really, really unlikely that the owner would tell you.

And it is also really rude that you seem to think I have made up what I posted. Just because you have never heard of it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Exactly right, chapala is the exception rather than the rule. Many places here in mexico you are pay bribes or are extorted for almost everything. If you own a restaurant here you pay to pass the inspections, nothing to do with cleanliness. You need connections to get your kids in a good school and you pay a bribe to the teachers even then. Extortion is normal whether it's by narcos, local gangs or even government officials. I do not live in a gringo or tourist area.

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Exactly right, chapala is the exception rather than the rule. Many places here in mexico you are pay bribes or are extorted for almost everything. If you own a restaurant here you pay to pass the inspections, nothing to do with cleanliness. You need connections to get your kids in a good school and you pay a bribe to the teachers even then. Extortion is normal whether it's by narcos, local gangs or even government officials. I do not live in a gringo or tourist area.

Speaking of which, the Mexican papers are claiming arrests of police officers and apparently the brother of the mayor of Monterrey was seen accepting payola prior to the incident.

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Speaking of which, the Mexican papers are claiming arrests of police officers and apparently the brother of the mayor of Monterrey was seen accepting payola prior to the incident.

Here is a good recap in english by Borderland Beat. Looks like the brother has left town =- http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2011/09/casino-arson-massacre-in-mexico-may-be.html

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Speaking of which, the Mexican papers are claiming arrests of police officers and apparently the brother of the mayor of Monterrey was seen accepting payola prior to the incident.

Not surprising. If you go to court the best thing you can have is bribe money for your attorney to give to the judge....and hope he actually gives it to him. Everyone takes payola, that is just a part of living expenses.

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