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A letter to the moderator


camillenmx

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Dear Sir or Madam,

I was invited to a meeting of CASA yesterday and discovered that I had been the subject of discussion on your La Cocina web board for having written an article that states animals are not allowed in restaurants. I checked the discussion this morning wishing to have an opportunity to defend myself, especially since there are those who appeared quite offended by my interpretation of health department regulations. I found the thread closed and thus have no other opportunity for recourse.

I saw the link to the government website which states that animals are not allowed in the area where food is being prepared. This is what the law states and it is true. However, having spent more than 8 hours over the course of 3 days with health inspectors in my establishment several years back and being threatened with fines and closure, I think I have a pretty good understanding, right from the health inspectors mouth, of what is and is not allowed. I was told (and, who knows, maybe he lied) that there were to be no rats and roaches in the kitchen (which there weren't), and no dogs and cats in the dining room or vice versa. I do not speak of things of which I do not know and it saddens me that someone would think that I would callously misstate facts to my own benefit or detriment, especially in print.

I realize that many restaurants, some my direct competitors, allow animals in their dining rooms and on their patios. I have seen dogs eating at tables off plates and pet owners placing restaurant plates of food on the floor for their pets. I know that there are people who choose to eat elsewhere because I do NOT allow pets anywhere in the restaurant and I accept the economic loss that this decision represents. I also know what the fines are if ever I were to get caught breaking the laws.

In this same thread, someone posted I do not even allow seeing eye dogs. This is a rumour which has been around for several years now and I'm not sure where it comes from. There have been people who, in the past, have tried to pass of a Dachshund or a Chihuahua as a seeing eye dog and I have not allowed these companion animals to stay. The only time I questioned anyones seeing eye dog was when a couple came in with greyhounds. In my limited experience with guide dogs I was unaware that any breeds, other than German Shepherd's and Labradors were used to this effect. When I told them I didn't allow pets, they clarified that these dogs were guide dogs. End of discussion.

I attempted to email you directly as I am not sure that, due to the sensitivity of the subject this is appropriate to post to the web board, but I did not find a contact email to send this to and thus turned directly to here. If you feel it is apprpriate to remain on the web board, I would kindly ask you to leave it here so that I might be able to set the record straight regarding our professional practices and interpretations of Mexican laws.

Finally, I would like to extend my sincerest apologies to whomever I have offended by denying access to their guide animals and assure them it will not happen in the future.

Thank you,

Camille Collins

Mom's Deli

camillec@prodigy.net.mx

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There has been debate and controversy over pets in restaurants over and over again. I usually argue in favor of allowing them while others, like RevImmigrant, argue the reverse. Frankly, I like debating issues and will take either side to do so.

As a restaurant owner, you certainly have the right to say "no" to having animals in your establishment. However, others do have the right to say "yes" and those are the places my wife and I prefer to go. That does not mean we do not go to others but, when choosing a place by ourselves, and not going with others, we do like to take one of our dogs along.

When I say others have the right to say "yes", that is exactly what I mean. We are friends with 3 restaurant owners who all tell us pets are not allowed in the kitchen or food prep areas but are allowed in the dining areas at the owner's discretion. Since this has been told us by three different owners, I have a tendency to believe it.

As for seeing eye dogs, we have two friends here that have them. Neither one has the dogs you mention. In actuality, many breeds can be trained as such. However, I do not believe a chihuahua or a dachsund are among them.

While I never participated in the discussion on you or Mom's Deli, I am glad that the moderators allowed your professional response.

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Thank you Camille,

I appreciate the fact that dogs are not allowed in Mom's. I have two quite well behaved dogs that I love and enjoy but I would not foist their presence on anyone else.

My dogs are kept clean but they do roll on the grass, step in who knows what and meet up with other dogs. What do they they bring into a restaurant with them? What about people who fear or are uncomfortable around dogs? Do they have to leave when others selfishly think that it is necessary to impose their pooch on others?

What do you gain taking the dog and what do others lose because you have done so.

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I think I have a pretty good understanding, right from the health inspectors mouth, of what is and is not allowed. I was told (and, who knows, maybe he lied) that there were to be no rats and roaches in the kitchen (which there weren't), and no dogs and cats in the dining room or vice versa.

It doesn't sound like this is subject to debate, does it? Thank you, Camille. You are to be commended for following the rules, even though it may not please all your customers.

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Dear Sir or Madam,

In this same thread, someone posted I do not even allow seeing eye dogs. This is a rumour which has been around for several years now and I'm not sure where it comes from. There have been people who, in the past, have tried to pass of a Dachshund or a Chihuahua as a seeing eye dog and I have not allowed these companion animals to stay. The only time I questioned anyones seeing eye dog was when a couple came in with greyhounds. In my limited experience with guide dogs I was unaware that any breeds, other than German Shepherd's and Labradors were used to this effect. When I told them I didn't allow pets, they clarified that these dogs were guide dogs. End of discussion.

Thank you,

Camille Collins

Mom's Deli

camillec@prodigy.net.mx

There is a blind lady that lives in Jocotepec and her and her husband and 2 friends went to Mom's to eat, she has a seeing eye dog that has a harness and they were not allowed in, because of the dog, this was about 3 years ago. He was a large black lab dog very well behaved and everyone loved him, He was always working when he was with her. They never returned because of this.

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Guest RevImmigrant

Thank you, Camille, for clarifying your position and the law as explained by the inspector. And to you, Shira, for your insight into others' views.

I personally am somewhat afraid of dogs and have never had particularly good experiences with dogs and therefore avoid them when at all possible.

As we can all see from reading this thread and the previous thread with regard to dogs in restaurants there continues to be a debate about exactly what the law requires.

This topic reminds me of the Pope discussing the existence of God with an atheist - there is no common ground and, therefore, there will never be any consensus of opinion.

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There has been debate and controversy over pets in restaurants over and over again. I usually argue in favor of allowing them while others, like RevImmigrant, argue the reverse. Frankly, I like debating issues and will take either side to do so.

As a restaurant owner, you certainly have the right to say "no" to having animals in your establishment. However, others do have the right to say "yes" and those are the places my wife and I prefer to go. That does not mean we do not go to others but, when choosing a place by ourselves, and not going with others, we do like to take one of our dogs along.

When I say others have the right to say "yes", that is exactly what I mean. We are friends with 3 restaurant owners who all tell us pets are not allowed in the kitchen or food prep areas but are allowed in the dining areas at the owner's discretion. Since this has been told us by three different owners, I have a tendency to believe it.

As for seeing eye dogs, we have two friends here that have them. Neither one has the dogs you mention. In actuality, many breeds can be trained as such. However, I do not believe a chihuahua or a dachsund are among them.

While I never participated in the discussion on you or Mom's Deli, I am glad that the moderators allowed your professional response.

Years ago there was an elderly lady here in the municipality of chapala that had a seeing eye Chijhuaja....i used to take her horsebackriding on the lake and she would squint her eyes and say....Is that a cow? But with that little dog she could go anywhere. I would bet anything I am not the only one who remembers her.

I LOVE Moms, with or without dogs.

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Thank you all for your comments, support and lively debate. Again, I reissue my/our sincerest apologies to anyone who has been turned away because of a guide dog, I have tried to be careful in instructing my staff to have even greater regard for those who are physically challenged. If any of us failed on this or any other occasion I am very sorry and we will do our best to not let it happen ever again. thank you for pointing this out.

Camille Collins

Mom's Deli

camillec@prodigy.net.mx

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Mom's is one of lakeside's best restaurants, in that it's a known quantity. You can always count on its consistency: good food, attentive service, clean surroundings. In addition, Camille is one of the nicest people I know. She would never knowingly be harsh or cruel. Firm, yes; unkind, no. If someone with a guide dog has been turned away, it's probably been a misunderstanding or miscommunication with the servers.

That said, this issue of dogs in restaurants and stores intrigues me. In the US, one would not consider taking a pet into a restaurant or grocery store - nor be allowed to. Why people feel compelled to do so lakeside is a puzzlement. You can't be away from your dog for an hour? You can't leave your dog at home for an hour? You can't leave your dog in the car for a little while? If not, then call ahead and order take-out. I am a dog lover, but not everyone is. Have some consideration for other people and keep your dogs out of lakeside restaurants and stores.

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Thank you all for your comments, support and lively debate. Again, I reissue my/our sincerest apologies to anyone who has been turned away because of a guide dog, I have tried to be careful in instructing my staff to have even greater regard for those who are physically challenged. If any of us failed on this or any other occasion I am very sorry and we will do our best to not let it happen ever again. thank you for pointing this out.

Camille Collins

Mom's Deli

camillec@prodigy.net.mx

You are doing a great job, restauranting is tough and you can never please everyone 100% of the time. Thanks for a job well done Mom's.

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Mom's is one of lakeside's best restaurants, in that it's a known quantity. You can always count on its consistency: good food, attentive service, clean surroundings. In addition, Camille is one of the nicest people I know. She would never knowingly be harsh or cruel. Firm, yes; unkind, no. If someone with a guide dog has been turned away, it's probably been a misunderstanding or miscommunication with the servers.

That said, this issue of dogs in restaurants and stores intrigues me. In the US, one would not consider taking a pet into a restaurant or grocery store - nor be allowed to. Why people feel compelled to do so lakeside is a puzzlement. You can't be away from your dog for an hour? You can't leave your dog at home for an hour? You can't leave your dog in the car for a little while? If not, then call ahead and order take-out. I am a dog lover, but not everyone is. Have some consideration for other people and keep your dogs out of lakeside restaurants and stores.

A long time ago you could walk into just about any restaurant in town with a dog and it was a non issue. People just got accustomed to that if they liked it or not. Now that policies have changed some people just can't adjust....service dogs are another issue though, I wonder if they are legally recognised in Mexico?

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I've never had a problem NOB having my dog with me in outside seating. Of course she's little and stays on my lap under the table so doesn't bother anyone. Anyone who leaves a dog for even a short time in a car, shouldn't own a dog. It may feel nice outside, but try sitting in a car for even a few minutes with the windows mostly rolled up.... I think you'll be shocked at how quickly it becomes an oven.

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I prefer restaurants with no pets or children. My daughters always refer to restaurants like Applebees and similar as "family friendly", which defines the places I avoid.

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Guest RevImmigrant

Slobo, I agree with you - no "family friendly" places full of screaming kids and dogs. I was at Aopplebee's once and didn't like the food either.

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I can't see any rhyme or reason for how both the smoking and animal in restaurants laws are enforced but it does seem like some of the restaurants in Riberas and SAT have been hit very hard by health department inspectors for allowing either smoking or pets or both in their premises. Jessica at Sunrise has advised me that the health department has made it clear in no uncertain terms that Sunrise can allow neither in their restaurant. Brissis (which is closed now while the owner finds a new location) told us dogs and smoking were allowed outside and that the inspectors told them that, Desayunos Deliciosos (name?) just west of Chapala no longer allows smoking inside or outside and I've never seen pets there. In Ajijic it's different still. Roberto's has animals all over the place and smoking allowed on one of the outdoor patios, El Jardin allows smoking outside and animals too, Salvador's likewise, and on and on. I don't eat very often in Chapala so can't speak to practices there

So I am confused about where the inspectors are enforcing the laws, if they are slowly inspecting restaurants, if some owners pay bribes so smoking and pets can continue to be allowed or what. Maybe Camille can shed some light on all of this.

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Enforcing the smoking and pet laws is more of an honor system than anything else. The health department does not have the staff available to police all the restaurants within the city limits of Guadalajara, Zapopan and Tlaquepaque, much less to be sending them out to Lakeside on a regular basis. Most of the time when people get into trouble here it's because of one of two things; either a) there was a specific complaint lodged against an establishment or, B) they were in the neighborhood and your establishment happened to be noticed as they drove by. Usually it's the latter. Whoever enforces the rules, however they choose to enforce them it is more as a preventive measure to ensure that if they DO happen to stop in you're not fined or closed immediately, hence the difference in the interpretation and application of the laws

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I can't see any rhyme or reason for how both the smoking and animal in restaurants laws are enforced but it does seem like some of the restaurants in Riberas and SAT have been hit very hard by health department inspectors for allowing either smoking or pets or both in their premises. Jessica at Sunrise has advised me that the health department has made it clear in no uncertain terms that Sunrise can allow neither in their restaurant. Brissis (which is closed now while the owner finds a new location) told us dogs and smoking were allowed outside and that the inspectors told them that, Desayunos Deliciosos (name?) just west of Chapala no longer allows smoking inside or outside and I've never seen pets there. In Ajijic it's different still. Roberto's has animals all over the place and smoking allowed on one of the outdoor patios, El Jardin allows smoking outside and animals too, Salvador's likewise, and on and on. I don't eat very often in Chapala so can't speak to practices there

So I am confused about where the inspectors are enforcing the laws, if they are slowly inspecting restaurants, if some owners pay bribes so smoking and pets can continue to be allowed or what. Maybe Camille can shed some light on all of this.

I do not understand why you are confused, you are living in Mexico. Whatever you get involved with, you find inconsistency,, be it IMSS, driving license etc etc..what happens in one place or to a friend, is no guarantee it will happen to you

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Enforcing the smoking and pet laws is more of an honor system than anything else. The health department does not have the staff available to police all the restaurants within the city limits of Guadalajara, Zapopan and Tlaquepaque, much less to be sending them out to Lakeside on a regular basis. Most of the time when people get into trouble here it's because of one of two things; either a) there was a specific complaint lodged against an establishment or, B) they were in the neighborhood and your establishment happened to be noticed as they drove by. Usually it's the latter. Whoever enforces the rules, however they choose to enforce them it is more as a preventive measure to ensure that if they DO happen to stop in you're not fined or closed immediately, hence the difference in the interpretation and application of the laws

Thanks for the clarification, Camille. It sounds like the logical reason for how the law is enforced here. I just feel sorry for the restaurants who have been fined when others continue the same practices with impunity. But asi es la vida or c'est la vie. Pick your language.

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Mom's is one of lakeside's best restaurants, in that it's a known quantity. You can always count on its consistency: good food, attentive service, clean surroundings. In addition, Camille is one of the nicest people I know. She would never knowingly be harsh or cruel. Firm, yes; unkind, no. If someone with a guide dog has been turned away, it's probably been a misunderstanding or miscommunication with the servers.

That said, this issue of dogs in restaurants and stores intrigues me. In the US, one would not consider taking a pet into a restaurant or grocery store - nor be allowed to. Why people feel compelled to do so lakeside is a puzzlement. You can't be away from your dog for an hour? You can't leave your dog at home for an hour? You can't leave your dog in the car for a little while? If not, then call ahead and order take-out. I am a dog lover, but not everyone is. Have some consideration for other people and keep your dogs out of lakeside restaurants and stores.

Dogs have been allowed on the patio in St Louis restaurants since 2007, so the US is changing its views on this too.

St. Louis first Mo. city to let dogs in outdoor restaurants

Under state law, cities and counties decide if pets are allowed inside.

Tuesday, July 17, 2007 | 12:00 a.m. CDT; updated 11:07 p.m. CDT, Sunday, July 6, 2008BY CHERYL WITTENAUER THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

ST. LOUIS — Dogs are in. Gerbils, hamsters and turtles are out.

Such is the fate of critters under a new state law that lets cities and counties decide whether household pets may join their people at outdoor restaurants.

On Friday, St. Louis became the first city in Missouri to take advantage of the new state law that allows a local option for doggie dining.

http://www.columbiam...oor-restaurant/

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Alas, we are talking common decency and common sense here. We are not talking about outdoor cafes or restaurants with outdoor seating where one would expect to see pets. Indeed, it's an everyday practice in Europe. How nice for you that you live in a state where this is now allowed.

We are talking about being respectful and thoughtful. We are talking about restaurant owners who are working hard to serve good food in an atmosphere that is pleasant to all diners - and be mindful of the law.

I was in Super Lake the other day. A gringa was in there with her dog...in the shopping cart. To me, this is outrageously inconsiderate behavior. As stated earlier, dogs shed hair and dander, dogs have fleas, dogs have walked over who knows what, dogs lick...well let's just leave it at that. Let's hope one of you wasn't the next person to use that cart.

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Tomas, I agree that was an inconsiderate thing to do, but it might be a good thing to avoid the never-ending and often contentious back and forth between the pro and against dogs in restaurants/markets people. It's an emotional thing, and people tend to leave their logic behind when the emotions kick in. It's like mothers get about their human children. You don't want to go there without full keflon, flameproof covering.

Camille started the thread with some solid information but alas, it didn't take long to hear the same familiar tune from those who just can't let it go, do the restaurants and the other patrons a favor, and leave the pets home. This is Mexico, not Paris or St. Louis. Different places, different laws and a different culture altogether.

My take is that no, restaurants aren't supposed to have pets or smoking inside and that what applies to patios may be under question; but yes, people do it anyway and the enforcement is apparently selective.

I'm at the point of just going "Ommm" and trying to ignore the way gringos feel they're entitled to do whatever they want, regardless, and that my next restaurant seat's previous occupant may have had it's naked butt on it and left some fleas and dander behind. Or rolled in whatever, wherever and brought it along to it's little spot under the table. C'est la vie! :rolleyes: My pet lion, Chomper, is extremely well-behaved, but taking him out to eat might make others uneasy.

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