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Understanding the drug violence


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Is Mexico safe for tourists? I thought this article laid it out quite well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/04/06/mexico_mix_drug_violence.DTL

The author obviously did some in depth research and didn't just parrot back the same overused generalizations that usually appear in mainstream newspaper articles about Mexican narco violence.

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Is Mexico safe for tourists? I thought this article laid it out quite well.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/04/06/mexico_mix_drug_violence.DTL

I was with the author until the final section when she said the choices before Calderon are cutting a deal with the cartels to allocate turf and thus reduce violence, or "inviting foreign intervention". Hmmm...just who is the foreign power that would be invited to intervene? Let me see...possibly somebody close at hand? He would be insane to take such a step. He would make the cartels the heros of the resistance to the foreign (let's say it: US) forces. The US forces would face a hostile population, with little understanding of the culture or language. After the US "mistakenly" killed enough civilians, there would probably be a genuine popular armed resistance, infinitely complicating the situation. Mexico has had quite a few US interventions over the 19th and 20th Centuries, and resisted every time. Porfirio Diaz said it right when he commented "Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States." And all of this doesn't even take into account the fact that the US is now fighting 3 wars at enormous cost. Calderon would have to be out of his mind to take that step.He would make the PAN the minority party for the next hundred years. Best for him to either legalize drugs to remove the profit (the best option), or cut the best deal he can with the cartels (the somewhat lesser bad option in an awful situation).

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I was with the author until the final section when she said the choices before Calderon are cutting a deal with the cartels to allocate turf and thus reduce violence, or "inviting foreign intervention". Hmmm...just who is the foreign power that would be invited to intervene? Let me see...possibly somebody close at hand? He would be insane to take such a step. He would make the cartels the heros of the resistance to the foreign (let's say it: US) forces. The US forces would face a hostile population, with little understanding of the culture or language. After the US "mistakenly" killed enough civilians, there would probably be a genuine popular armed resistance, infinitely complicating the situation. Mexico has had quite a few US interventions over the 19th and 20th Centuries, and resisted every time. Porfirio Diaz said it right when he commented "Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States." And all of this doesn't even take into account the fact that the US is now fighting 3 wars at enormous cost. Calderon would have to be out of his mind to take that step.He would make the PAN the minority party for the next hundred years. Best for him to either legalize drugs to remove the profit (the best option), or cut the best deal he can with the cartels (the somewhat lesser bad option in an awful situation).

I agree with you.

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Seems you have the usual answers with no solutions. I'll ask you as I have everyone in the past who imagines legalizing is the solution "then what are cartels and essentially thousands of hardened criminals going to do for a living?" I've never received an honest answer before, possibly you have one. Or, let me suggest one, they will turn to the next most available and profitable source, gringos.

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The cartel leaders and upper management have been laundering dollars for many years and now have a vast portfolio of legit businesses such as hotels, restaurants, golf courses, etc. They don't have any need for more money thru crime. Many of the mid and lower level narco contract workers at the bottom already had jobs and they were supplementing their day job pay with cartel money. A typical profile of this guy is the local cop or politician, truck driver, or even an auto body shop owner who was taking in some side jobs to weld up hidden compartments in narco transport vehicles. Most of these players have regular income from legit sources.

I doubt if there are "thousands" of cartel members who are fully employed by the cartels and have no other source of income or investments.

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Possibly, but then why do Warren Buffett, Carlos Slim etc. continue to work, they couldn't spend their money in 3 lifetimes. Why in the States do 80 year old congressmen fight tooth and nail to get re-elected, it's power and more money.

Generally human nature has a quirk "too much ain't enough". And as far as the low level people they also share a common human trait, once you get used to nice things, it's hard to give them up. When I travel to the border I see many trucks piled to the max returning from the States, my car isn't as nice as most of them, they got used to the good life and stepping back isn't that easy. So, let's be a bit careful before we assume all the bad guys will happily go back to their "day" jobs when other options are available.

As far as legalizing it, where, here? That does little for the demand NOB. The US isn't going to allow pickup loads of drugs to be bought here and pass merrily across the border just because it's legal here

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Seems you have the usual answers with no solutions. I'll ask you as I have everyone in the past who imagines legalizing is the solution "then what are cartels and essentially thousands of hardened criminals going to do for a living?" I've never received an honest answer before, possibly you have one. Or, let me suggest one, they will turn to the next most available and profitable source, gringos.

I say - cut a deal with them and hopefully the violence will end. Impose heavy jail sentences for anyone caught bringing in WEAPONS - perhaps life sentences or maybe even the death penality. Worry about Mexico, let the US and Canada worry about their own borders and let them figure out a way to STOP the inflitration of the drugs. Only way out of this mess. Wonderful that the US is stepping in with mega bucks to "help" - but all it's doing is making it worse for the mexicans....

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I suppose one could take a lesson from history.

Prohibition didn't work in the U.S.; but it made many bootleggers (Mafia?) wealthy before it was repealed. (And they also killed rivals to gain control of certain areas.)

Those former criminals invested in real estate, in gambling institutions, in legalised prostitution, etc., etc.

"Day jobs"? If you wanna call it that.

The cartels won't be hurting if their drug business is curtailed.

:ph34r:

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You have to remember why the US was successful for the most part in curtailing the Al Capone era, they had two things Mexico does not, they had the "untouchables" in the form of the FBI and they had a functional court/penal system. Today the only way the cartels are "judged" is at the end of a gun, the Feds etc. are tired of risking their lives to track and arrest only to see the criminals let off for "lack of evidence" or sent to prisons with revolving doors.

The US situation is schizophrenic, some of you (and MX) don't want any US intervention but you're quick to blame the US for all the problems, others of you complain the US is not spending enough, you can't have it both ways, pick one and live with it.

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If pot possession were legal in the US, then you could go to your Dr for a prescription for anxiety, then to the pharmacy to purchase it. That would substantially reduce demand from countries that provide the drug illegally. If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and quantity. Illegal drug trafficking thru Mexico becomes more risk than profit, so the narco violence in Mexico would subside. While in the US, jobs are created, taxes on labor for production and consumer purchase are paid to govt and narco violence in Mexico is reduced. Not to mention the cost to maintain a huge prison population. An economic fundamental.

Of course I doubt if the major US pharmaceutical companies such as Pfizer, Roche, GlaxoSmithKline or Johnson & Johnson think that this is great idea.

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Ok, now I see why I wasn't "getting it", I thought we were talking about legalizing it in MX, you're saying we'd have to legalize it in both countries to make this work.

So, you would make a bad problem NOB worse to make a bad problem in MX better, if I understand. That is such a bad idea I don't believe it deserves discussion, only to say the good news is that it has a zero chance of ever happening.

You are essentially depending on the compassion of the American people for that idea to work, and as is regularly heard on this and other forums, the Americans could care less about Mexico or their problems until they get N of the border. Consider this; if in fact Americans actually cared and were that compassionate, then why don't they simply all stop consuming dope and make the whole world a better place, especially Mexico?

As you can see, we're back to that nasty little quirk called human nature, especially when it comes to drugs. Finding druggies, or their suppliers that care a lick who died, when or why so they can get their daily fix is like finding hens teeth, neither exist in the real world.

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Well if you have a better idea, then please share. Doesn't look like the "War on Drugs" policy for the last 40 years has been very effective. Maybe we need to give it another 50 years and 1,000,000 murders then reassess our position.

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Well, I probably do, but no one has listened to me for years. On the lives to be lost, in today's Borderland Beat a MX official says by 2015 we should start seeing progress? I kid you not, he said it in public and out loud, I quickly calculated that means only another 160,000 or so have to die, so why not just round up that many, kill them on the spot and accelerate the process? Sorry, but sometimes the words uttered by "officials" of any country make insanity a preferable option.

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Well, I probably do, but no one has listened to me for years. On the lives to be lost, in today's Borderland Beat a MX official says by 2015 we should start seeing progress? I kid you not, he said it in public and out loud, I quickly calculated that means only another 160,000 or so have to die, so why not just round up that many, kill them on the spot and accelerate the process? Sorry, but sometimes the words uttered by "officials" of any country make insanity a preferable option.

When I read the article, I just shook my head. Unbelievable that someone really could think that way. One of the things that really needs to be fixed is the Mx officials.

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Oh, I read them very carefully before I hit the post button. You may disagree, but that doesn't change the reality of what I've said. Many people want an easy quick solution and aren't interested in looking deep into the problem, what has brought us to this point, or what it's going to take to pull back from the abyss, to borrow on an old phrase; reality is a dish best served cold.

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....................... Many people want an easy quick solution and aren't interested in looking deep into the problem, what has brought us to this point, or what it's going to take to pull back from the abyss..................

Maybe there is no bottom - when one starts digging deeper.

Last month it was the US was letting illegal guns cross the border into Mexico.

Today it turns out that a high level drug dealer says he was working for the US Government for the last 5 years!! (from borderland beat and other mexican newspapers)

Ismael “El Vicentillo” Zambada is one of the most senior drug trafficking figures in U.S. custody. He’s accused of working for the Sinaloa Cartel, a powerful drug trafficking organization in Mexico. In fact, he’s the eldest son of one of its leaders....and
is accused of trafficking nearly $6 billion in cocaine

But oops - they may have to let him go - because according to his lawyers, he has been working for the US Government for the last 5 years.

Gee Whiz - sounds like the US is trying to help the narcos. What are they thinking!!

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Oh, I read them very carefully before I hit the post button. You may disagree, but that doesn't change the reality of what I've said. Many people want an easy quick solution and aren't interested in looking deep into the problem, what has brought us to this point, or what it's going to take to pull back from the abyss, to borrow on an old phrase; reality is a dish best served cold.

That's a mighty high opinion you have of yourself. You stated previously that "no one" listens to what you have to say; here you posture with "the reality" of what you've said as such a loner; time for re-evaluation?

:017:

:015:

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That's a mighty high opinion you have of yourself. You stated previously that "no one" listens to what you have to say; here you posture with "the reality" of what you've said as such a loner; time for re-evaluation?

:017:

:015:

Work your way through it, it's not complicated. Someone asked if I had a solution, I answered honestly, I do. However, I'm retired, I can't wave my hand and have anyone jump, neither do I have a bully pulpit, hence no one listens. Example: 6 months after Gen Schwarzkopf retired a reporter asked what was hardest, he said 6 months before 230,000 men saluted him and jumped, now he couldn't get a plumber to fix a leak.

Everything I stated is true, reality if you will. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you just pass on by much like the many who want an easy solution to this problem without thinking it through and calculating the unintended consequences of a band-aid approach to what is more a mortal wound if left unattended.

Re-evaluation isn't necessary or a consideration.

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That's a mighty high opinion you have of yourself. You stated previously that "no one" listens to what you have to say; here you posture with "the reality" of what you've said as such a loner; time for re-evaluation?

:017:

:015:

Marieluiase - sorry you didn't realize that this forum actually has rules. They are posted under the Ajijic /Lake Chapala Section. Basically it says that personal criticism is not okay -

Here is a quote from the moderator under the rules section:

.........................................All are welcome here to ask questions, get answers, agree or disagree in a civil manner on things about Mexico and Lakeside living. But this is not the place to make personal comments against those you don't agree with or because you don't happen to like their opinion or topic. It is easy enought to ignore a post or topic you don't agree with. That is the appropriate action and if you think the post or topic violates this code of conduct, please bring it to the attention of anyone on the moderating team. It will be dealt with................

So I would suggest you ignore what you disagree with if you cannot reply without negative personal comments - as in my opinion you have made several that lack civility

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