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deroyam

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i really do not mean to cause any trouble...

but i am curios as to why two replies correcting the stats put forward by Atlas were deleted?

150,000 people have not died of gun violence in the US over the last 4 years... that is just factually inaccurate...

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Program between 2005-2009 (5 years)a total of 72,828 murders were committed in the United States,49,186 by firearms. The numbers are slowly trending down and that is consistent with an overall decrease in general US crime rates over the past 20 years.

Expanded Homicide Data by Weapon. 2005-2009

Crime in the US--FBI statistics

It should be obvious to any objective observer that what is happening in Mexico is not happening in the US. I live in a Mexican border city and the contrast with its sister city across the river in terms of violence is night and day. Why people would want to define their level of personal security by comparing it with irrelevant---and in the case of this thread inaccurate---statistics is not clear to me.

Those of you who live in the Lakeside communities should be thankful that you have not been more affected by the chaos that exists in other parts of Mexico and leave it at that. I don't mean it disrespectfully, but to me it is obvious many of you are very uninformed about what is happening in many places in Mexico or simply choose to ignore the news that is out there.

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Those of you who live in the Lakeside communities should be thankful that you have not been more affected by the chaos that exists in other parts of Mexico and leave it at that. I don't mean it disrespectfully, but to me it is obvious many of you are very uninformed about what is happening in many places in Mexico or simply choose to ignore the news that is out there.

Totally Agree. I think most of us have our heads in the sand - and I include myself. Someone listed some books to read - and I am currently trying to get through Charles Bowden's book "murder city" - which of course is about the past, not the present. The present is worse - and the horror of it all is too much for me to comprehend. Lakeside is nothing but an isolated microcosm isolated from those chaos. How long? who knows.

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"The numbers at the wikipedia link you provide are quite misleading as they reference a study from the 1990's AND they include gun death by suicides... "

Actually, if you look closely at the report, it was updated in 2004. And even if you cut a third off the figures, that's still a LOT of gun deaths. So not misleading at all.

Let's face it, the numbers, no matter which reports you look at, are astounding. Truly astounding.

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Those of you who live in the Lakeside communities should be thankful that you have not been more affected by the chaos that exists in other parts of Mexico and leave it at that. I don't mean it disrespectfully, but to me it is obvious many of you are very uninformed about what is happening in many places in Mexico or simply choose to ignore the news that is out there.

I don't think anybody is ignoring what's happening. The point originally was stop freaking out about what's happening here; it's too sensationalistic, when you compare it with many places around the world, especially in the U.S. I say again: my own home town has scores of unreported crimes every single day. Every - single - day. And we don't walk around with our eyes bulging out, waiting for the hammer to drop.

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I don't think anybody is ignoring what's happening. The point originally was stop freaking out about what's happening here; it's too sensationalistic, when you compare it with many places around the world, especially in the U.S. I say again: my own home town has scores of unreported crimes every single day. Every - single - day. And we don't walk around with our eyes bulging out, waiting for the hammer to drop.

There is a difference between unreported crimes and unreported slaughters. There is no resemblance between what is happening in Mexico and what is happening in the US. And my friends tell me they no longer want to read the news - that is - they want to ignore what is happening.

Here is an example - todays news http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/estados/79584.html

"Several attacks by organized crime in the last few hours against public buildings and a series of clashes between rival left at least 32 dead in Tamaulipas, 18 of them in the municipality of Padilla, including 11 civilians caught in crossfire, "one of the most violent days of the drug war in the state."

and that is "reported news" - much goes unreported.

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"The numbers at the wikipedia link you provide are quite misleading as they reference a study from the 1990's AND they include gun death by suicides... "

Actually, if you look closely at the report, it was updated in 2004. And even if you cut a third off the figures, that's still a LOT of gun deaths. So not misleading at all.

Let's face it, the numbers, no matter which reports you look at, are astounding. Truly astounding.

the numbers are most misleading because they include gun deaths by suicide... i normally do not think of suicide as a homicide- and neither does the FBI-- you might like to include those numbers to help an argument- but it is just misleading... i do not think anyone attempts to take protective measures against another person who decides to kill themselves with a gun... also, there is no reason to approximate the number of homicides in the US... i provided them for you...

but, nonetheless, i do agree with you--

for a country that has 200 million less people than the US, ~40,000 murders over the last 4-5 years is truly astounding...

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The question remains: How many of those 'victims' were 'innocent' and how many were the 'bad guys' & wannabe bad guys. Yes, some were military or police & local politicos, but they may also fall into either of the two main categories.

Why are we so exercised over this 'war' and so little concerned over the 'appetite' that causes it?

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I don't think anybody is ignoring what's happening. The point originally was stop freaking out about what's happening here; it's too sensationalistic, when you compare it with many places around the world, especially in the U.S. I say again: my own home town has scores of unreported crimes every single day. Every - single - day. And we don't walk around with our eyes bulging out, waiting for the hammer to drop.

You illustrate my point by continuing to suggest that cartel violence and the security threat it presents is even remotely comparable to conditions in the United States. I live in Tamaulipas the state that the the previous poster referenced in the news reports. In addition to the slaughter in Padilla (near Ciudad Victoria), yesterday someone threw a grenade in front of a convenience store in Matamoros wounding a number of people including a couple of children and on Sunday the head of Nuevo Leon's security and intelligence agency was kidnapped, driven to downtown Monterrey, executed and for emphasis a grenade was thrown into his vehicle setting it on fire. Two weeks ago the new director of police in Nuevo Laredo was ambushed on his way home by Zeta gunmen and murdered along with three of his assistants.

You are either uninformed about these events, ignoring them, not objective or a combination of all three if you think this is comparable to the United States. I agree people shouldn't freak out about the recent events in Guadalajara because the situation is almost benign compared to what Monterrey experiences. Likewise count yourself lucky that the security situation hasn't deteriorated in the lakeside communities. But you truly are whistling past the graveyard if you think things are better or no worse than living in the US in terms of security.

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Some of my thoughts and those obtained by having a Mexican wife and by having worked and lived in both Ontario and New Mexico.

1. One's perception of security is their right to have.

2. Half the expats at lakeside are Canadian and by coming from Canada have a very different perspective of crime than Americans'. Simply look at nationmaster.com One example is that in the city of Toronto two police have died on the job between 2002 and now. One died being hit by a car in 2002 and one by a stolen snowplow as odd as it sounds. And with the vast majority of crime NOB the criminal is ultimately caught and justice is served.

3. It is impossible to compare stats in US or Canada to Mexico as approx. 88% of crime not reported in Mexico and only 2% goes through the justice system. So, posting of stats comparing somewhere else to Mexico is truly useless. To appreciate the difference look at bars on windows, high walls, razor wire and broken glass on walls etc. NOB practically unheard of. And, I have to admit some who post on here talk about how safe you feel yet I know one of those people has walls over 20 feet tall!

4. I am really bothered that expats only consider their own safety but maybe just not saying it. My thoughts are every Mexican is affected through kidnapping; 5 BILLION a year spent to fight the narcos; stolen oil from Pemex amounting to millions; ransom for kidnapped PEMEX employees ... that is those who get freed; protection money that ultimately is added to cost of purchases; CFE corruption; pirating versus depriving the producer of the material and the government of income; lineups at government offices due to unskilled workers and lack of computers etc. So rather than saying ... wow, I feel safe consider every Mexican in who's country we live. Education, infrastructure; services etc are all poor while funds are directed at fighting the narcos and funds stolen by government employees. Just maybe think beyond ourselves please. And, again i stress maybe you do but do not say it.

5. Education is key to improving the plight of Mexicans. Today, Calderon announced there will be some refunds through Hacienda for children attending private schools. Definitely this is a plus.

6. I know I am not as safe as NOB. As with anything in life, it is about choices. I balance weather, cost of living, the culture, the gorgeous countryside and this works for me. At same time I am not naive and through my huge appetite to be informed I will not be lulled into complacency.

So, everyone is different. We all have a different background and value system. If yours is different than mine I appreciate your perspective and often will learn from you and while I may even disagree I see no reason to make my views justification to make my comments personal against another. I also realize most expats do not speak Spanish, do not have a Mexican partner and has very very limited source of news. John

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...

You are either uninformed about these events, ignoring them, not objective or a combination of all three if you think this is comparable to the United States. I agree people shouldn't freak out about the recent events in Guadalajara because the situation is almost benign compared to what Monterrey experiences. Likewise count yourself lucky that the security situation hasn't deteriorated in the lakeside communities. But you truly are whistling past the graveyard if you think things are better or no worse than living in the US in terms of security.

Really. And when was the last time you were attacked by a drug cartel?

The United States is rampant with senseless daily murders. And yet when we do get control here, as did Columbia, we will not face the same outrageous violence we now do.

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The question remains: How many of those 'victims' were 'innocent' and how many were the 'bad guys' & wannabe bad guys. Yes, some were military or police & local politicos, but they may also fall into either of the two main categories.

Why are we so exercised over this 'war' and so little concerned over the 'appetite' that causes it?

Excellent response.

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There is a difference between unreported crimes and unreported slaughters. There is no resemblance between what is happening in Mexico and what is happening in the US.

So let me ask you this: which is worse, a severed head or a bullet to the brain? A scatter grenade in a nightclub or a mass killing at a political rally? Two dead bodies on the highway, or a little girl buried alive by her tormentor?

To me, murder is murder.

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Really. And when was the last time you were attacked by a drug cartel?

The United States is rampant with senseless daily murders. And yet when we do get control here, as did Columbia, we will not face the same outrageous violence we now do.

The post that I quoted says, "...And yet when we do get control here, as did Columbia, we will not face the same outrageous violence we now do..." What concerns me about this quote is this: who is the 'WE' the poster mentions. If by 'we' the poster means Mexico's government, that's one thing. If by 'we' the poster means the USA, that is another thing altogether. On the other hand, the poster may mean something that I have missed entirely.

Chunkybutt, kindly clarify this and I'll respond to your clarification.

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Really. And when was the last time you were attacked by a drug cartel?

The United States is rampant with senseless daily murders. And yet when we do get control here, as did Columbia, we will not face the same outrageous violence we now do.

I have been stopped three times in narco reténes which fortunately were set up for reasons other than robbery. I witnessed a levanton (lifting) of someone from a vehicle at a blocked off intersection. I have seen some $%&/() PFP officer shoot at a vehicle that failed to stop at an impromtu checkpoint on a busy street on a Sunday afternoon. I see armed comandos in transit on city streets a couple of times a month. I have heard balaceras on two occasions in the last six weeks while sitting at home in the evening. I have clients and friends in the transportation industry who are victimized regularly by organized criminal gangs. My brother-in-law's municipal utility company in northern Coahuila pays $25,000 pesos per month to the Zetas. He has also had two oversize pick-ups stolen while driving between Monclova and Nava. I have heard scores of first hand accounts of encounters with the mala gente. Do I need to continue?

I live in Tamaulipas dude---not in some ex-pat enclave where there are no security problems. Sorry that I can't share your fantasy that the dangers for residents of the US are similar or worse than those faced by residents of present day Mexico. Again count your blessings that your part of Mexico is relatively calm and just pray that it stays that way. Jalisco is not immune to inter-cartel warfare which is the cataylst for the wholesale violence we see in Juarez, Torreon, Tamaulipas, Monterrey and any number of other places.

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The post that I quoted says, "...And yet when we do get control here, as did Columbia, we will not face the same outrageous violence we now do..." What concerns me about this quote is this: who is the 'WE' the poster mentions. If by 'we' the poster means Mexico's government, that's one thing. If by 'we' the poster means the USA, that is another thing altogether. On the other hand, the poster may mean something that I have missed entirely.

Chunkybutt, kindly clarify this and I'll respond to your clarification.

I don't understand; I thought it was clear. By WE I mean US, the collective residents of this fine country. I may be a foreigner, but I have chosen Mexico as my home, and its peoples as my compatriots. Whoever helps us, god speed.

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I don't understand; I thought it was clear. By WE I mean US, the collective residents of this fine country. I may be a foreigner, but I have chosen Mexico as my home, and its peoples as my compatriots. Whoever helps us, god speed.

Okay, thanks. And what do you mean by "...as did Columbia..."

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You've certainly seen your share, and I agree we are seemingly more protected in our 'enclaves'.

But you've mistaken my intent, I think: I'm defending this country against those NOB who would paint our current problems with the brush of death. I'm trying to help point out to those people who insist that staying in the U.S. is safer than living here, have it completely wrong.

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Okay, thanks. And what do you mean by "...as did Columbia..."

Because while there is still a huge drug problem in Columbia, they have learned effective ways to deal with it, and the violence that one used to see in Columbia (as is being displayed in Mexico now) has calmed down considerably. Whether one agrees with the methodology or not, it has been effective, and now we seem to be what Columbia used to be.

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I have been stopped three times in narco reténes which fortunately were set up for reasons other than robbery. I witnessed a levanton (lifting) of someone from a vehicle at a blocked off intersection. I have seen some $%&/() PFP officer shoot at a vehicle that failed to stop at an impromtu checkpoint on a busy street on a Sunday afternoon. I see armed comandos in transit on city streets a couple of times a month. I have heard balaceras on two occasions in the last six weeks while sitting at home in the evening. I have clients and friends in the transportation industry who are victimized regularly by organized criminal gangs. My brother-in-law's municipal utility company in northern Coahuila pays $25,000 pesos per month to the Zetas. He has also had two oversize pick-ups stolen while driving between Monclova and Nava. I have heard scores of first hand accounts of encounters with the mala gente. Do I need to continue?

I live in Tamaulipas dude---not in some ex-pat enclave where there are no security problems. Sorry that I can't share your fantasy that the dangers for residents of the US are similar or worse than those faced by residents of present day Mexico. Again count your blessings that your part of Mexico is relatively calm and just pray that it stays that way. Jalisco is not immune to inter-cartel warfare which is the cataylst for the wholesale violence we see in Juarez, Torreon, Tamaulipas, Monterrey and any number of other places.

Some of the things you mention are now going on in Guadalajara and all of Jalisco but are referenced in the newspapers as "other events" Extortion, threats of Kidnappings etc..We know of businesses being subjected to the same demands you have noted above- but these things are never reported to the authorities or make the headlines of the news agencies for obvious reasons, People here in Guadalajara are still going about their daily lives as before, but we're becoming more cautious as we hear about things happening to friends and other people we know.

Unfortuantely, it seems the people in the expat enclave are not privey to what goes on in the real world of Mexico around them and continue to believe they have a "bubble" of protection floating above the lake. But, recent events there should be noted as a preview of things to come.

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2 US Special Agents just shot and wounded when driving between Mexico City and Monterrey.

http://www.station.lu/?p=edito&a=external&id=107802

Sooner or later the US or UN will have to intervene as this spirals out of control. The narcos are terrorists.

This will be on every newscast and every newspaper NOB and the politicians will run with this in every direction possible. US involvement will likely change and tourism for at least a short time affected.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/americas/02/16/mexico.ice.attack/index.html?hpt=T2

This happened on what is one of the most traveled highways in Mexico. All US government agents will have restricted travel now. I would not underestimate the outcome.

Definitely Mexico is in a civil war similar at least to Ireland several years ago and even parts of Iraq now. The narcos have total impunity and the government only working around the "edges" of this issue.

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I doubt that any intelligent and well informed resident of the Lakeside area believes that there is a bubble of protection floating above the lake. I think the general population of this area not only knows that the situation is close to home and getting closer.....but also knows there are only two options open to them: leave for what they perceive to be "safer" places, perhaps NOB, or deal with their daily lives here while living under an ever-increasing threat of having them disrupted.

In discussing this situation, I think it would be more productive to assume that nobody in the State of Jalisco has his or her head in the sand. It would be nearly impossible to remain in a state of unawareness in this era of instant news dissemination.

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Some of the things you mention are now going on in Guadalajara and all of Jalisco but are referenced in the newspapers as "other events" Extortion, threats of Kidnappings etc..We know of businesses being subjected to the same demands you have noted above- but these things are never reported to the authorities or make the headlines of the news agencies for obvious reasons, People here in Guadalajara are still going about their daily lives as before, but we're becoming more cautious as we hear about things happening to friends and other people we know.

Unfortuantely, it seems the people in the expat enclave are not privey to what goes on in the real world of Mexico around them and continue to believe they have a "bubble" of protection floating above the lake. But, recent events there should be noted as a preview of things to come.

I have no doubt there is alot more happening in Jalisco than some members of the ex-pat community realize. Not being familiar with the Lakeside area I don't really know what type of interaction residents have with the non ex-pat communities. If the contact is limited and even moreso if there is a language barrier, it is understandable that a high level of awareness might not be there.

Most people who reside in the major cities of Tamaulipas--Nuevo Laredo, Reynosa, Matamoros, Ciudad Victoria and Tampico--live in a state of dysfunctional normalcy. But everyone who lives here knows there is a shadow world that exists alongside them and all have had it materialize in front of them in situations like I described. Some unfortunately have to deal with it more directly than others.

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I doubt that any intelligent and well informed resident of the Lakeside area believes that there is a bubble of protection floating above the lake. I think the general population of this area not only knows that the situation is close to home and getting closer.....but also knows there are only two options open to them: leave for what they perceive to be "safer" places, perhaps NOB, or deal with their daily lives here while living under an ever-increasing threat of having them disrupted.

In discussing this situation, I think it would be more productive to assume that nobody in the State of Jalisco has his or her head in the sand. It would be nearly impossible to remain in a state of unawareness in this era of instant news dissemination.

Well said Gringal. Privado used to live Lakeside and since moving to Guadalajara has a condescending attitude towards Lakesiders. Unbeknownst to her many of us read the Mexican press and watch local television. Such is the way of "Nuevo Tapatios." No one knows everything, but many know much.

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