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Kaykeey

Guadalajara - Top Mexican drug lord killed in clash with army

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You might consider what the Mafia did after prohibition was lifted. Hint: It wasn't kidnapping.

How true. I think we all got an education with the Sopranos.

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Prohibition created the wealth and power of the mafia and it took a lot of good police work and decades to knock them back, but the first step was taking away all the money coming in everyday from smuggling. The cartels and gangs in the US are getting stronger everyday from the war of drugs and the first step has to be stopping them from getting that income.

There are two ways... stop drugs from getting into the country or take the profit out of it. If we can't keep drugs out of the most heavily guarded places in the country... prisons, then I doubt it's possible to keep drugs out, so the only rational choice is take the profit out.

Even with reasonable taxes most drugs would cost about the same as a cigarette addiction if priced at actual cost. The cartels don't have tens of Billions of dollars in profit to launder every year because the cost of product is high.

We're paying for treatment and/or prison for users now, the drug war doesn't stop anyone who really wants drugs from getting them, what is so hard about seeing this with an open mind and recognizing that making laws against something some people are driven to use is never going to be successful? Prohibition of recreational drugs today makes no more sense than Prohibition of alcohol did in 1930 and those of us who live here in Mexico have a stake in legalizing drugs in the US, that stake is our security. As long as the cartels make more money than the Mexican government they won't be defeated and we will have ever escalating violence here.

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Some less than informed types will say legalize drugs! is this with the intent of the narcos going away? Do you think this will reduce their terrorism?

Rather naive I would say. So you must also propose legalizing the many other narco activities which in total are more lucrative? These include kidnapping; stealing thousands of barrels of oil a day; bribery; loan sharking; prostitution; political corruption; racketeering; extortion; protection payments; controlling the press, pirating (which is said to exceed the income of the drugs and the total money Mexico makes on oil), etc. Legalizing drugs does not make them go away but only to step up the other activities.

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While I agree with you in part, legalization will NOT reduce any of the related costs of drug use. Alcohol and Nicotine are prime examples. Both of these drugs are legal, yet the ones who are footing the bill on associated HEALTH CARE costs are not the "providers of the drug" nor the users - really.

This statement assumes that smoking pot is dangerous to one's health. This is simply not true. Therefore, there will be no associated health-care costs. Further, since marijuana offers medicinal assistance, it's legalization will actually help our medical costs. Currently, 15 States have legalized medical marijuana. That certainly says something. I haven't seen alcohol or nicotine authorized for medical use.

A report on CNN on Sunday stated that 29,000,000 Americans use pot regularly. Who knows where these figures came from, but I'll bet that number is low. So yes, legalizing pot will cure a multitude of ills in the legal system.

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With the legalization (decriminalization) argument, how far do you go? Do you legalize (decriminalize) everything and have drugged out zombies or crazies all over the place or do you only legalize (decriminalize) certain drugs but then the cartels switch to manufacture / importation / distribution of the banned and more lucrative ones?

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Intercasa, if recreational drugs were legal, would you buy them? Would the fact of their existence and legal availability cause you to become a crazed zombie?

People that want to get high, do. People that don't....don't. I have among my friends those who don't drink, those who drink a little, some who drink to excess, some who are recovering, and some who should be but aren't. If alcohol were illegal, I think the proportions would change....not at all.

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Intercasa, if recreational drugs were legal, would you buy them? Would the fact of their existence and legal availability cause you to become a crazed zombie?

People that want to get high, do. People that don't....don't. I have among my friends those who don't drink, those who drink a little, some who drink to excess, some who are recovering, and some who should be but aren't. If alcohol were illegal, I think the proportions would change....not at all.

I don't agree. If things are cheaper, people buy more of them. Booze is a perfect example. It has gotten costly to spend money on booze. If you sold "The Boys," Johnny Walker & Jack Daniels for $2 a gallon, there'd be a lot more sold, more people would get blitzed, there'd be more alcohol related highway deaths, more people would lose jobs because of becoming addicted, and generally, things would go down hill.

It's like an open invitation to anyone who couldn't afford it, to join the party. The same would apply to designer drugs, and marijuana.

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I don't agree. If things are cheaper, people buy more of them. Booze is a perfect example. It has gotten costly to spend money on booze. If you sold "The Boys," Johnny Walker & Jack Daniels for $2 a gallon, there'd be a lot more sold, more people would get blitzed, there'd be more alcohol related highway deaths, more people would lose jobs because of becoming addicted, and generally, things would go down hill.

It's like an open invitation to anyone who couldn't afford it, to join the party. The same would apply to designer drugs, and marijuana.

If they were paying me to drink it, I still wouldn't. Same with pot-although been there, done that.

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If they were paying me to drink it, I still wouldn't. Same with pot-although been there, done that.

The key word in what you said was "I." We often have a tendency to believe others would do as we would. That's rarely the case. The human condition teaches us that people are their own person, and when you find people who have weaknesses, it ends up getting explored.

There's a reason for AA, and Gamblers Anonymous, and any other support group. It's because of weaknesses.

According to studies, the legalization of gambling in a lot of states has shown a marked increase in the number of people addicted to it.

Why would we think for a moment that people would be less susceptible with legalized drugs at a lower price, and the same would happen with booze?

There was a time I believed we should legalize it, but after being a police officer, and having dealt with addiction to just cigarettes myself, and needing three tries to quit, and having seen alcoholism in both my wife and I's families, I no longer think it's as simple as what some people would like to believe.

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And the argument goes around and around. But when Prohibition made booze illegal, it only made things go underground, with a huge increase in crime in that area. The concept of drug-crazed zombies is so wrong it's not even worth getting into a disagreement over; the focus should be on how damaging the illegal drug-crime scene is to all of us now. The cost in time, lives, and money, and prison for a victimless crime, is absolutely overwhelming. The cost to rehab a bunch of over-indulgers will be comparatively miniscule.

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And the argument goes around and around. But when Prohibition made booze illegal, it only made things go underground, with a huge increase in crime in that area. The concept of drug-crazed zombies is so wrong it's not even worth getting into a disagreement over; the focus should be on how damaging the illegal drug-crime scene is to all of us now. The cost in time, lives, and money, and prison for a victimless crime, is absolutely overwhelming. The cost to rehab a bunch of over-indulgers will be comparatively miniscule.

I knew a guy living in the Catskill area who lived the life of Reilly. In the summer he biked, fished and lazed in the sunshine down by the Hudson river. He also enjoyed female companionship, as the other men were at work. I do not know what he does in the winter. He is over 6' in his mid thirties and a very healthy specimen. (Nice Bod!) I have seen him on occassion buying a six-pack and cigarettes, I believe he smoked Marlboros.

The reason he was free as a bird was due to the fact he also smoked pot, although I have never seen him stoned. His marijuana smoking was considered an addiction by NYS. As an addict is also considered a disability by NYS, this man will be supported by the taxpayers to continue this lifestyle for the rest of his life, all is covered, rent, food, healthcare. I believe it is possible we will see many more people on disability if drugs are legalized. Perhaps I am wrong.

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True zombie doesn't apply to all. The effect of drugs on people varies. Some sleep better, the others have bloodshot eyes and laugh alot. With the harder drugs people can become violent and they can bring out the devil in a person.

I wouldn't want people using harder drugs to be around me or where I live. People are crazy enough to deal with and reason with when they aren't on anything.

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People all around you are already using illegal drugs. Prohinitions don't keep those who want drugs from getting them any more than gun laws keep criminals from getting guns. We proved all this back with alcohol prohibition and for whatever reason we've chosen to ignore what we learned about human nature in the past.

For those of us who live here in Mexico it is even more important to pressure US law makers to legalize recreational drugs. Our safety and need to stop the growth of violence from billionaire drug cartels mandates it. I do think eventually the violence will spread there in high enough levels for the US to act, but if we wait til then Mexico may look like Colombia in the 90's and won't be all that nice a place to be living.

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The US will act on the basis of what they think is best for the US, not what anyone in Mexico wants, because they moved there.

It's not about "me," it's about all of us.

And, by the way, we are strongly considering moving to the Lake Chapala area.

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I'm not sure how spending billions of dollars for no results and creating a super class of violent and wealthy/powerful criminals plus locking up 1% of the country is in America's interest but it sure is the policy they have used since Nixon.

My point is the only way things will change is from pressure from citizens and those Americans living here do have a good reason to put a little effort into legalizing drugs in the 'homeland'.... and in the long run they will have to be legalized anyway when things get out of hand NOB

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I'm not sure how spending billions of dollars for no results and creating a super class of violent and wealthy/powerful criminals plus locking up 1% of the country is in America's interest but it sure is the policy they have used since Nixon.

My point is the only way things will change is from pressure from citizens and those Americans living here do have a good reason to put a little effort into legalizing drugs in the 'homeland'.... and in the long run they will have to be legalized anyway when things get out of hand NOB

don't hold your breath. nothing will change.

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My point is the only way things will change is from pressure from citizens and those Americans living here do have a good reason to put a little effort into legalizing drugs in the 'homeland'.... and in the long run they will have to be legalized anyway when things get out of hand NOB

The only thing that the US gov't responds to is money and power. Average citizens have neither. Corporations, via their lobbyists, are running the gov't, along with the very rich and powerful individuals who are cozy with politicians. A tiny number of people are calling the shots for the vast majority. Average US citizens are not organized, not powerful and not rich, even if a chunk of them wanted legalization, who would care? If the US gov't ended up legalizing a few drugs someday (not in my lifetime), the reason would be to line their pockets, regardless of the propaganda they would feed the masses.

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It wouldn't be just the US that would have to legalize (decriminalize) drugs but also the other countries like in Europe who are users and where the route to get there crosses and passes through Mexico.

There are measures right now in Mexico to decriminalize and not prosecute people for small personal amounts.

http://www.informador.com.mx/mexico/2010/222961/6/organismos-civiles-proponen-legalizar-consumo-de-drogas.htm

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It wouldn't be just the US that would have to legalize (decriminalize) drugs but also the other countries like in Europe who are users and where the route to get there crosses and passes through Mexico.

There are measures right now in Mexico to decriminalize and not prosecute people for small personal amounts.

http://www.informador.com.mx/mexico/2010/222961/6/organismos-civiles-proponen-legalizar-consumo-de-drogas.htm

Intercasa, excellent point. Legalization would have to be a global effort to have an impact on cartels and illegal trafficing. I've read that some cartels have purchased huge older passenger airplanes in S. America and are flying them with tons of illegal drugs across the ocean from S. America locations into Africa, and bypassing any regulated airspace. There are photos of these huge abandoned planes in the deserts of Africa. The trafficers continue to move the contraband from Africa north into Europe, essentially unhampered.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i6w-doyjewoRGhOaaAHVYfrVWONQ

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60C3E820100113

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Well it's true that corporations and big money controls much of our government if not all. But some issues have been framed and acted on by public opinion in the recent past... gay marriage and gay rights in general, health care reform and more. Medical Marijuana is gaining a LOT of support around the country and California has legalizing recreational use on the ballot this fall, it seems like there is a bit of momentum right now. If the public follows some of the advice here and sits on it's hands then for sure nothing will change, maybe if people stand up for changing policy it won't help, but maybe it will. I just know that we as ex pats have a dog in this fight and should be up front leading, not giving up.

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Well it's true that corporations and big money controls much of our government if not all. But some issues have been framed and acted on by public opinion in the recent past... gay marriage and gay rights in general, health care reform and more. Medical Marijuana is gaining a LOT of support around the country and California has legalizing recreational use on the ballot this fall, it seems like there is a bit of momentum right now. If the public follows some of the advice here and sits on it's hands then for sure nothing will change, maybe if people stand up for changing policy it won't help, but maybe it will. I just know that we as ex pats have a dog in this fight and should be up front leading, not giving up.

why should expats,who have left their country,be up front leading? Wouldn't those who remain at home be the most logical to lead?

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Taken from Californias Proposition 19 the Marijuana Initiative

Fiscal impact

In the time leading to 2010, California's state government's budget deficit has grown to be the largest of all American states. The California legislature has estimated that taxing the previously untaxed domestically grown $14 billion marijuana market would produce $1.4 billion a year,[4] Taxing marijuana, supporters say, could be a smart way to help alleviate pressure on the state budget.[5]

According to the California Legislative Analyst's Office, the following fiscal impact would result from the bill.[6]

  • Result in significant savings to state and local governments, potentially up to several tens of millions of dollars annually due to reduction of individuals incarcerated, on probation or on parole.
  • Cells currently being used to house marijuana offenders could be used for other criminals, many of whom are now being released early because of a lack of jail space.
  • Minor reduction in state and local costs for enforcement of marijuana-related offenses and the handling of related criminal cases in the court system, providing the opportunity for funds to be used to enforce other existing criminal laws. The RAND Corporation has found that law enforcement costs for marijuana enforcement are relatively low.
  • Potential increase in the costs of substance abuse programs due to speculated increase in usage of marijuana, possibly having the effect of reducing spending on mandatory treatment for some criminal offenders, or result in the redirection of these funds for other offenders.
  • The measure could potentially reduce both the costs and offsetting revenues of the state's medical marijuana program as adults over 21 would be less likely to participate in the existing program as obtaining marijuana would be easier, thus making use of existing medical marijuana program unnecessary.
  • There would be a reduction in fines collected under current state law but a possible increase in local civil fines authorized by existing local laws.
  • The cumulative effect on fines is largely unknown.

Ballot Initiatives started in Calif. decades ago in response to citizen complaints that the California Legislature was not addressing issues that were supported by the people of the state. If it passes, it could pave the way for other states to follow.

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Taken from Californias Proposition 19 the Marijuana Initiative

Fiscal impact

In the time leading to 2010, California's state government's budget deficit has grown to be the largest of all American states. The California legislature has estimated that taxing the previously untaxed domestically grown $14 billion marijuana market would produce $1.4 billion a year,[4] Taxing marijuana, supporters say, could be a smart way to help alleviate pressure on the state budget.[5]

I'm all for marijuana legalization, but does anyone really think that if it was legalized, the Mexican drug lords and cartels running the current $14 billion marijuana market in CA would suddenly start channeling their illegal crops through the state of CA and US federal government for processing, sales and taxation, and therefore make far less $$? They wouldn't go down without a big fight (bloody and violent), and I doubt they would disappear. No, they would move to other states and/or countries where the drug is still illegal in order to make their billions, as well as continue to operate in the illegal drug world (meth, heroine, cocaine, etc), and crank up their other lucrative illegal activities (kidnapping, etc). One way or another, they will wreak their havoc on society as the parasites they are.

Legalizing marijuana certainly would help the small time users stay out of jail and would make it easier to purchase the product. But, I'm not so sure it would be that much less expensive than it is now, since states would see it as a cash cow and tax it to the hilt. States would gain some tax income, but who produces, packages and sells it? There are costs involved with those activities.

How would the users get the money for their marijuana if it was legal? Instead of needing $1000/day, for example, they might need $500/day, and for the thugs/users at the bottom of the food chain, they will still need to rob and steal and commit crimes to come up with the cash. The users at the top end of the food chain can already afford it at any price (Wall Street bankers, movie stars, etc).

IMO, there isn't that much impact on the current violence and drug cartels with legalizing use of small amounts of marijuana in a few states in the US, or even in Mexico. Legalization would need to be wide spread (US and other countries) and on a large scale (all illegal drugs).

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I'm in total agreement with you guys.

But wait! I'm having a little trouble with this part, xx2y:

How would the users get the money for their marijuana if it was legal? Instead of needing $1000/day, for example, they might need $500/day,

You're kidding, right? You really think someone could smoke $1000 worth of pot a day!!! Or even $500 worth of pot a day. Or even 1000 or 500 PESOS worth of pot a day. Holy Cow! Not possible. Unless they got ripped off huge-time on the price. . . o dios mio

Mexican Trailrunner

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