67 replies to this topic

[Ajijic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ski1CF1vgQw&feature=relmfu

[Ajijic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szwlWYewPsw

[Ajijic]

An email I have sent to CNN and Canada's 3 largest newspapers:

As a Canadian living in Mexico I would like to know why there is practically a news blackout world wide on these events. This week in more than 20 cities and towns in Mexico and even Phoenix AZ the number of protesters was huge. A quick search on You Tube will find video's such as these and the subject is covered by Wikileaks. and Anonymous has an excellent Facebook page.




Newspapers want to carry gory articles about narcos and their horrendous actions but when Mexicans say we have had enough they deserve the respect of it being reported as well.

xxxx xxxxxx
San Miguel de Allende, GTO, Mexico

[Alex]

Thanks for posting these links. Here's another link that relates to the protests. It's a statement from AMLO.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ia3pjp

[elbelgicano]

Thanks "Ajijic",.... and believe it or not, this is what El Informador prints today :

El otro hecho

Y en la Ciudad
de México...

Unas cinco mil personas marcharon en la Ciudad de México para protestar contra el resultado de las elecciones presidenciales del pasado 1 de julio. Esta marcha no fue convocada por #YoSoy132.

Una investigación de la Cámara de Diputados dio a conocer que 60% de los jóvenes descalifican a los partidos políticos para el funcionamiento de la democracia.

[elbelgicano]

Thanks "Ajijic",.... and believe it or not, this is what El Informador prints today :

El otro hecho

Y en la Ciudad
de México...

Unas cinco mil personas marcharon en la Ciudad de México para protestar contra el resultado de las elecciones presidenciales del pasado 1 de julio. Esta marcha no fue convocada por #YoSoy132.

Una investigación de la Cámara de Diputados dio a conocer que 60% de los jóvenes descalifican a los partidos políticos para el funcionamiento de la democracia.

That is like saying..... "oh, and by the way, a few Mexicans also marched in DF,....."

[Ajijic]

The most recent and largest protests noted in my posts just happened this week. This goes way beyond July 1, 2012 protests and has happened many days since. The protest were in every city in every state this week including Guadalajara plus even some small places like Comonfort near SMA. Next Sunday, protests are expected to be larger. If one can not get these protests in the news you can imagine how much of the narco war news is filtered out. Why is this not in every major newspaper and televised on every major network in the world?

They even interrupted this wedding of a very famous comedy actor (our next door neighbour who comes occasionally mentioned this to us as she is one of the main actresses in the show) which was televised throughout Mexico

http://latimesblogs....pena-nieto.html

The protest schedule for July 13and some today:

Lista de lugares donde se llevara a cabo la #MegaMarcha


El dia de mañana se llevara a cabo la segunda #MegaMarcha a Nivel Internacional, nos dimos a la tarea de buscar los lugares de donde saldran los contiengetes de la Marcha.

Se invita a Marchar de una forma pacifica, y no hacer caso a las provocaciones de otros grupos.

(Si en tu ciudad habra una Marcha y no esta en esta lista y quieres que se te incluya envianos un email. prensa@blogdelpueblo.com o bien actualízala directo al evento de Facebook de https://www.facebook...01771203302025/ )

-Torreon: Plaza de Armas 4pm
-Cd de Mexico: Angel de Independencia 3pm
-Los Angeles CA: Enfrente del Consulado de Mexico en Los Angeles 1pm
-Queretaro: Jardin Guerrero 3pm
-Monterrey: Colegio Civil 3pm
-Los Cabos, San Jose del Cabo: Plaza Mijares 5 pm
-Guadalajara: Plaza Liberacion 3pm
-Puebla: Zocalo 3pm
-Tlaxcala: Plaza de la Constitucion 3pm
-Morelia, Michoacan: Calzada San Diego 3 pm
-Edo de Mex: Alameda Central de Toluca 3pm
-Veracruz: Asta Bandera 5pm
-Xalapa, Veracruz: Teatro del Estado 3pm
-Orizaba, Veracruz: Asilo de Mier y Pesado 3 pm
-Cordoba, Veracruz: 3pm
-Tabasco: Plaza de Armas y Plaza Revolucion 3pm
-Tampico: Plaza de Armas 3pm
-Guaymas, Sonora: Plaza de los tres presidentes 6pm
-Colima: Jardin Libertad 5pm
-Manzanillo: Malecon del Espiritu Santo 3 pm
-Cuernavaca, Morelos: De la Paloma de la Paz al Zocalo 3pm
-Tepoztlan, Morelos: Zocalo 3pm
-Cancun: Parque de las Palapas 3pm
-Ciudad del Carmen, Campeche: Glorieta del Camaron 3pm
-Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas: Parque Central 3pm
-Tlapa de Comonfort, Guerrero: del Hospital General al Zócalo Central de la Ciudad 6pm
-Reynosa, Tamaulipas: Plaza Pricipal 7pm
-Tepic, Nayarit: Plaza Principal 3pm
-Acapulco: en la Diana Calzadora 3pm
-Chetumal, Quintana Roo: Estacionamiento del Bio-Universo 3:30pm
-Acuña, Coahuila: Afuera de SORIANA 5pm
-Ensenada, Baja California: Monumento a Lazaro Cardenas hasta el Parque Revolucion 5pm
-Phoenix, Arizona: Enfrente del Consulado Mexicano 3pm
-Palenque, Chiapas: Cabeza Maya 4pm 15 de JULIO
-Oaxaca:Plaza de las Regiones 3pm
-Tuxpan, Veracruz: Monumento a los niños heroes 4:30pm
-Hermosillo, Sonora:en ley kino, a la plaza zaragoza, 5:00 pm


Las ciudades que no se encuentran aqui, no nos indicaron que tendrian una marcha y es por eso que no estan incluidas, si su ciudad tendra una y no esta inlcuida envienos un email.

[lakeside7]

Why is it people send so much time protesting after the event and not working to get people to vote beforehand !!!
NOB has its own corruption, given the obscene amount of money that corporations are now allowed to spend. Voting NOB has become less democratic than Mexico

[elbelgicano]

First, there is absolutely NO comparison (talk to Mexicans, listen to the right media, ...).
Second, we are living in Mexico so why always this deperate need to compare with NOB ?

And for your info, the problem was not with voters´ turn out.

I am so happy to see that Mexicans are no longer accepting all the lying, games and cheating,.... Finally, I would say.
Now, let them have their fight for real democracy, whatever the outcome is. This is a country that has already suffered so much because of, to use a simple term,... injustice.
Now that they are finally standing up for their rights, ... let them be.

I have to say that I liked AMLO's tweet today, after the Spanish newspaper El Pais criticised him, basically replying : Spain, be more "self- critical" about the (economic and social) tragedy and mess YOU are in. And in a way, that says it all...

[Mainecoons]

Couple of questions here:

1. What is the PAN's position on this? Are they claiming the election was stolen? Are PAN supporters in large numbers participating in the demonstrations or is this mainly PRD supporters?

2. How was the election stolen? I understand the PRI gave money to people to vote for them. However, how could they confirm that the people actually voted for them? Unless they actually used the voter's ID and sent alternates to the polls who used those IDs to vote, at least three million of them, how could they actually have known how the voter voted in the privacy of the voting booth? What's to keep the voter from taking the money and then voting for someone else?

Much was made of the fact that all major polling places had observers from all three parties. How is it possible that three million or more alternate voters could have shown up at polls and be allowed to vote without being caught by the substantial number of poll watchers, both national and international?

3. Is paying people to influence votes limited to just the PRI or did they just do it a lot more than the PAN or PRD this time around?

4. If the charge is ballot box stuffing, then why was the turnout normal and why did the polling actually showing the PRI winning the presidency by considerably larger margins? Is it possible that many PRI supporters didn't bother to vote because they were convinced their vote wasn't needed? This is a typical NOB response to lopsided polling which is why political operatives there try to downplay polling when it favors their candidate too much. NOB, ballot stuffing is usually evidenced by inflated vote tallies.

As for the complaints about media bias, welcome to the club folks. It works both ways as 2008 in the U.S. proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. We seem to live in an age where there is very little integrity in the media and for the most part they are not to be believed. IMO this is extremely anti-democratic and damaging to open and free political process regardless of who engages in it.

[Ajijic]

Mainecoons I am sincerely not sure if you are being stubborn or not reading the various posts on this subject. Plus numerous videos on You Tube etc and newspaper articles are available. For starters go to the thread
Complaint to Demand Annulment of Election

Unfortunately the only two TV news organizations are deeply rooted into the PRI. And as to the PAN they put up a weak candidate intentionally so they never intended to win.

And, the US government support PRI and afraid of the PRD so again no major news information yet they love to report about narcos etc. Then again the US is 24th when it comes to corruption and Mexico 100th.

[Mainecoons]

A lot of allegations in your source, Ajijic. We agree that in some localities, voter credentials were purchased and undoubtedly used to sway local elections. I don't care about U Tube videos, they are biased opinion, not documented, credible reports. We certainly agree that there was media bias, so what? Hardly uncommon these days.

You keep talking about all those numerous newspaper articles but then in the same breath complain about media censorship. Which is it? Are you confusing op-eds with credible reports? Where are the supporting reports from the international observers? Some links would be appreciated as they don't seem to be turning up on my searches.

The PAN had a primary election, did they not? Are you telling us that the PAN, after their historic defeat of the PRI was going to toss the election for them? Sorry, I'm not buying that one. I think their strongest candidates knew that the PAN was road kill as a result of Calderon's war on drugs and so they stayed on the sidelines. This is typical politics, the same thing happened in the last U.S. election. The major Republican players knew the party was road kill in 2008 so they stayed on the sidelines.

I thought the U.S. government supported the PAN and was quite concerned that the PRI would be less cooperative in the narco war. Are you telling us that the U.S. media is controlled by the government such that they are blocking coverage of the demonstrations? Is this also true in the U.K. as I see very little, for example, on the BBC as well about these demonstrations. That does surprise me somewhat.

I am not being stubborn, I am being skeptical based on my direct experience and senior level training as a campaign manager and political operative when I lived in New Mexico, a place that has quite a history and tradition of ballot fraud (voting the cemetaries is a big favorite there). It is easy to steal very close local elections. It is not easy to do it on the scale you all allege. So I am skeptical and not yet convinced. Neither of us are Mexican citizens and hence don't have a dog in this fight. You may want to step back from your obvious bias here and be a bit more skeptical as well.

Don't interpret my skepticism as preference for the outcome of this election. Were I a Mexican citizen, I would not have voted for this outcome.

There seems to be a tradition of the losers taking to the streets after elections here. I see a lot of allegations yet no one has offered a credible explanation as to how 3 million votes, let alone 5 million could actually be "purchased." I see some serious indication of localized ballot fraud and it does appear the campaign spending laws were observed about as well as the local traffic laws. As a relatively impartial observer, however, I believe that all of this simply pushed the horse in the direction it was already going. I'm going to have to see a lot more hard fact before I'm convinced.

[More Liana]

Last week on Mexico's national TV (sorry, Mainecoons, I don't have chapter-and-verse dates, but I watched it on channels 125 and 140 in Mexico City), President Calderón expressed serious concern over vote-buying and other election fraud. Not concern over the allegations: concern over the fraudulent activities.

Votes are purchased by offering money, merchandise, etc for the USE of the person who accepts voter credential. The credential is copied and taken to the polls; the person who accepts the payoff does not go to the polls him or herself.

Most sources (yeah, again with the anonymous stuff) give the number FIVE MILLION purchased votes for the PRI.

As to what the PAN did to sway the election: first, the PAN presidential candidate was someone who was not at all popular with the voters. When she appeared early in the campaign at Estadio Azteca in Mexico City, the stadium was all but empty. Later, former Pres. Fox gave her his endorsement, complete with hugs and kisses all around--and yes, I saw this on the news. THEN, at the very end of the campaign, Fox threw his weight behind the PRI presidential candidate, deserting the PAN candidate and taking back his promised support.

I think maybe you don't understand the process of Mexico's elections. The primaries are not run the way they are in the USA. Only party members can vote in a primary--yes, that is the same as in the States. But very few people are party members, no matter which party we are talking about. To be a party member isn't as simple as just registering as a Democrat, Republican, Independent, etc. It's a complex procedure that makes you part of the in-crowd and part of the political machine. ONLY those people--and there are few of them, compared to the population at large--are allowed to vote in the primaries. So saying that "PAN had a primary election" does not mean the same in Mexico that it does in the USA. It merely means that the powers that be in the PAN threw their backing to JVM. Many people believe that PAN ran the LEAST viable candidate so that the PRI would win. This is not paranoia; there are many convoluted reasons why it is a likely scenario. The simplest reason is that neither PAN nor PRI want a PRD candidate to win the presidency.

In another, now-locked thread, you suggested that I was angry about the outcome of the election and posting sour-grapes opinions. In fact, my posts are based on serious concern and real fear for the future of Mexico. Corruption here is endemic and election fraud has existed since the beginning of the PRI reign. Nevertheless, both were substantially worse and more transparent in this election than in any other prior election. Mexico, which gives lip service to striving for a viable democracy, has in fact taken many steps backward in allowing the disastrous corruption and fraud of this election to go without challenge.

[Mainecoons]

Thank you for a thoughtful response.

President Calderón expressed serious concern over vote-buying and other election fraud. Not concern over the allegations: concern over the fraudulent activities.

Serious concern is an opinion. Has Presidente Calderon stated categorically that he believes the election was stolen?

As to what the PAN did to sway the election: first, the PAN presidential candidate was someone who was not at all popular with the voters. When she appeared early in the campaign at Estadio Azteca in Mexico City, the stadium was all but empty. Later, former Pres. Fox gave her his endorsement, complete with hugs and kisses all around--and yes, I saw this on the news. THEN, at the very end of the campaign, Fox threw his weight behind the PRI presidential candidate, deserting the PAN candidate and taking back his promised support.

Nothing unusual in politics there. Again, I think this is more like the PAN recognizing it didn't have a snowball's chance in hell in this election and taking the route that would give them the most influence. That is how politics works.

Agree that neither PAN or PRI would be thrilled with a PRD win. However, the fact that people "believe" the PAN threw the election does not make it fact.

I'm interested that you think this election, which wasn't nearly as close as 2006, was more corrupt despite the major improvements in poll watching, ballot supervision and voter ID that have even drawn international recognition. For the same reasons you are concerned about the PRI/PAN "ganging up" on the PRD this time, I would have thought the same inclination would have existed last time and it would have been far easier to steal that election because of the closeness of the vote.

Interesting read here from the WSJ:

http://online.wsj.co...1140106160.html

[More Liana]

Although I would like to use the quote function to reply to your post, that function is not working for me (and for many others) at the moment.

Pres. Calderón is the leader of the country. No other sitting Mexican president has expressed this kind of 'opinion' about a presidential election.

You state that my concern is "about the PRI/PAN "ganging up" on the PRD this time". Those are your words; that is not my concern. My concern is the extent of corruption and fraud by PRI in the general presidential election. Vote-buying (read about Monex, Soriana, and most recently, this: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20120714/DA00QS601.html) and influence peddling were rampant--yes, that is my opinion, but it is also the opinion of many people who are highly placed in Mexican government, intellectual circles, and who are much more knowledgeable than the man on the street.

Your posts indicate that you discount 'opinion' and will listen only to hard facts. The 'hard facts' of fraud and corruption in this election may never be proved, since it is against the best interests of the PRI for the allegations to be substantiated. However, store receipts from the use of the 'gift cards' from Soriana showing "Beneficios PRI" have been published online. The linked article makes allegations of vote-buying. Individuals from many states have come forward to admit that they sold their votes. No, I can't quote chapter and verse: Fulano de tal sold his vote (in case you need a translation, fulano de tal means so-and-so).

You write about "major improvements in poll watching, ballot supervision and voter ID that have even drawn international recognition". Poll watchers, ballot supervisors, and voter ID have all been alleged to be corrupt. No, not all...but enough.

The PRI is smart enough to appear transparent while being opaque and clever enough to hide its vote-buying in a cloak of 'gifts' to voters. On the other hand, on July 10, 2012 the San Diego Union Tribune's Mexico section reported this: http://www.sandiegored.com/noticias/27038/Soriana-se-desploma-precio-en-la-bolsa-de-valores/.

I offer links to two news stories from US newspapers. For more and deeper coverage of the allegations and opinions of thousands of people, I recommend that you read Mexican newspapers and watch Mexico's news channels. Opinions, yes, but they just keep piling up.

You know the story about the little boy who was an incurable optimist? When taken into a room filled with horse manure, he enthusiastically dug in with a shovel. When asked, "Why in the world are you doing that!?" the little boy grinned and said, "With all this s**t pile up, there has to be a pony in there somewhere!"

The piled up s**t, in the case of the fraud in Mexico's 2012 presidential elections, consists of the opinions of thousands and thousands of people, from the person on the street to the president of the República. Other people continue to search for 'hard facts', the non-existent pony in the stable.

[Mainecoons]

Thanks again. Actually, I agree the PRI and PAN (knowing the latter couldn't win) pretty much "ganged up" on the PRD. IMO, it is just another data point about the corruption.

I share your concern, in the total context of the pervasive corruption here, that it pollutes the electoral process. I'm a bit of a cynic, I believe that "Democracy" is largely a fiction on this planet. IMO, it is mainly a game played by the ruling elites to convince the "suckers" that they actually have a say in things. Having actually worked on the inside of the electoral process has left me pretty soured on the whole deal.

In a lighter vein, you could argue that a group that can stuff the ballot box nationally to the tune of at least 3 million votes, demonstrates that they know how to get things done.

Unfortunately, you could also say that about the narcos.

[carcamal]

I am curious about how the "largest protests the world has ever seen" could be going on with only minimal notice being taken by expatriates. Wouldn't they be affected by disruptions to their daily life? How was this major protest in Phoenix so effectively hushed up that even the people who staged it were unable to upload reports of it onto the internet? I see news reports of sizable but certainly not unprecedented protests in Mexico and nothing at all about the one in Phoenix, although the media is not at all reluctant to report on demonstrations by Hispanics over the U. S. immigration policy, for instance.

[Mainecoons]

Why are people in Phoenix demonstrating about the Mexican election?

On edit, I have been unable to find any stories about demonstrations in Phoenix. Anyone have a link?

How would the Mexican citizens here feel if we took to the streets to protest a U.S. election?

Just curious.

Some BBC coverage of the Obrador filing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...merica-18824607

[Ajijic]

FYI there are thousands of Mexicans in Phoenix and if you look at post 7 above you will see Phoenix on the list. These are Mexicans protesting the Mexican elections. Why is this so hard to believe? Curious? Then on the other list you call it ad nauseum. geesh

Google "Mexican protests 2012" and you will find You Tube videos and news reports. Unfortunately, little is carried on major networks and newspapers in Canada and the US. Clearly, the US government wants no part of a leftist government in Mexico any more than they like Hugo Chavez in Venezuela.

Then again some get their news from FIX news and you only consider that as a source so most of everything not "reliable". It is Facebook, You Tube, Twitter etc that is the news in Egypt and many other countries and in them it is the students who started the protests and communicated. FYI in Mexico the protests include many more than students including the ones in Guadalajara just a few km away.

[Mainecoons]

No, I am looking for a news reference from Phoenix about the alleged demonstration there. Do you have one?

I've seen several reports where it is stated that the authorities in Mexico city estimated the crowd to have been around 50,000, Isn't Mexico City a PRD stronghold? If so, I wouldn't expect the authorities there to under-report the crowd.

You'll pardon me if I don't view amateur videos or facebook postings by sources of unknown credibility but very likely to be proponents, as newsworthy. Nor do I get excited about student demonstrations, given the very one-sided "educations" that many universities seem to push these days. Let's see what comes out of the PRD's court filings.