36 replies to this topic

[ra27]

Starting this tues 5/22, from 10-12, there will be a market featuring only organic farmers. Location is Tabarka Restaurant, plaza rancho del oro, mtn side, not too far west of robertos restaurant; this market will be ongoing, each tues, and is in addition to the farmers market also held on tuesdays, same time, at the events center, just west of cemetary, lake side of highway.

[ajijicer]

Does this mean the organic farmers will not be at the farmer's market?

[HelperGuy]

I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is anybody doing this now? At a time when so many people have left, and the original market has moved to an out-of-the-way place for many: now we need to segregate the organic from the non-organic...hold it on the same day at the same time... and continue to have the Monday market on top of that?

I think I like the old-fashioned concept: one market, every week, for decades.

[DaveP]

Starting this tues 5/22, from 10-12, there will be a market featuring only organic farmers. Location is Tabarka Restaurant, plaza rancho del oro, mtn side, not too far west of robertos restaurant; this market will be ongoing, each tues, and is in addition to the farmers market also held on tuesdays, same time, at the events center, just west of cemetary, lake side of highway.

Why o why at this time in the slow season would one open a new additional organic market when just one has a hard time to exist. This is not good marketing.especially so close to the other one.


DaveP

[ra27]

The farmers who truly practice organic methods will only be at Tabarka restaurant. You may want to talk to Paye at the restaurant for more info or to get questions answered. I am only posting the basic info for the community, and dont know many of the details.

[Luke]

This is really aggrevating .. having to go to two places in the same time period. I thought it was really great to have a bigger place away from town a bit (of course I am on the West side of Ajijic but others will now have to drive through the town as I used to do). Probably will go to the original market because they have such great things I am used to buying and forego the new one for the Wednesday market instead. I don't like it when people or companies take advantage of someone else's success to open a business at the same time and near the same place.

[ajijicer]

Hopefully someone will clarify. There are not that many organic farmers in the area and several of them were involved in the creation of our first organic market which has grown into the farmer's market we all love. Are these new farmers or are these the same farmers who started the original concept who now want to separate themselves? Maybe the market can have a section that is labeled "strictly organic" if that is the issue. Tabarka doesn't have that much space and maybe it is just a couple of people who are offering organic produce. Stay tuned, tomorrow will tell.

[ericurmudgeon]

Sounds a little strange to say the least. If there were to be two, more or less, "organic" markets it would make more sense to separate them geographically and have one on either side of town.

[ajijicer]

Make sense? What country are we talking about? You get used to it after awhile and it's all part of the Mexican experience. Go with the flow as they say.

[Canamex]

I hope I can clear some of this up: the reason the Farmer's Market changed its name from Organic Market is that it is impossible for every single product especially prepared foods to be made with organic resources - organic flour for example is scarce here, is imported, and very expensive. Organic yeast doesn't exist, organic almonds, chocolate etc. - rare or non-existent here. So where organic is available and not so cost prohibitive that no one would buy it, it's used, but it cannot be everything. The change is in the interest of honesty. Moreover, its original goal was to be ecologically conscious, not 100% organic. It is still trying to make the transition away from plastic, difficult given the cost and scarcity of alternatives but they are doing it. It's trying to move towards fully organic, but as of now, it's absolutely impossible if there is to be any choice.

The vegetables are mostly organic and all must be non-GMO. They are locally grown. Members sign an agreement but to some degree it has to be an honour system. At the Farmer's Market, plants are not to be grown with pesticides or chemical fertilizers. If you think anyone is using pesticides, you should report them. I can speak with certainty about some of the sellers: the sprouts are organic, from imported certified organic seed, mostly from Canada. Deena is growing organic vegetables even if she can't get certiification - these are two examples of many. What ra27 says is rubbish and self-serving. Ask for certificates and if they can be provided, people will show them. Ask questions, they'll do their best to answer.

There is a government certification program but it is well known for being full of officials who want "mordidas" and so not worth anything.

What has happened with the two markets is that a few Mexicans from the Farmer's Market don't want anything to be sold but the few vegetables that can be grown organically here - radishes, carrots, coriander. It's not that easy to get organic seeds in Mexico. Since this is a group of purists, they don't want other products to be sold at the same market (no breads, pastries, desserts, sandwiches etc.). They want to establish a certification process in Mexico with a new group called RASA and that's a good goal. But it's far from a done thing and they are not recognized or registered. No international body recognizes them.

As someone has rightly pointed out elsewhere, to be truly recognized as organic, it's not only the seeds but the soil, the water, the method - it all has to be tested and approved by an official body. It's not an easy matter here to get such testing done, it's even less easy to be sure of the water, and as I said there is no recognized official body to give it credence.

The Farmer's Market moved because Laguna rented the space and kept moving the market into smaller and smaller quarters. Many people who live a bit west of Ajijic are now thrilled, and those who live east are perhaps less happy. Get your friends to pick up things if you can't make it. As to parking, look - there is tons of parking and a huge entrance at the side of the building and in the plaza more parking. The cars at the very front are those of the vendors.

What's bad about having 3 markets? I agree that this splinter group seems unnecessary, but it was their choice. Deciding to make the Farmer's Market a rival was petty, but also their choice. The Wednesday tianguis is fine and dandy but locally grown has to be a thousand times better than the same old stuff, year after year, picked up at the Abastos market wholesale and marked up tremendously for the foreign population. Most of the stuff at the Wednesday tianguis comes from other parts of Mexico and is grown in the same huge operations that ship to foreign countries. The lack of choice is notable at the tianguis for those of us who want more than just commercial cucumbers, carrots and radishes.

[PULELEHUA]

Is it rivalry or complementary scheduling? I am more likely to stop by the organic and the farmer's market if they are on the same day on the same side of the village. If they were on separate days and/ or on opposite sides of the village, I would choose one over the other. I hope they both succeed.

[Canamex]

The two are very close to one another but Tabarka is right at the corner of a residential area, so there might be complaints about parking. Whether rivalry or no, only the people involved can say, it's not really important to speculate here. And if you can go to both, one after the other, great.

The only odd thing is that the splinter group could have remained at the Farmer's Market as someone suggested and put up their own signs, as others have done, to designate what is organic and what is not. The Farmer's Market is still pushing individuals to do this, but some resist - who knows why? One or two resist listing their ingredients, because they have an $%&/()ic notion that it's giving away a recipe. Whatever is important to you, ask about, and if they won't answer, you know what to do.

[Travis]

That was my thinking exactly, PULELEHUA. If the "certified organics" (or whatever) felt they needed to separate themselves, then it makes great sense to set up a second market on the same day, same time, same area very nearby. How easy and convenient.

From a shoppers point of view, the last thing we need is yet another market day.

And thanks for clearing up the issues in your post, Canamex.

[dumpy]

The problem with the ECO / Organic / Farmers market is the management.
Some ladies had a good idea (indeed: a good idea!) but the idea has grown and they have not.
These ladies know that there are cheating vendors at the market and they do not do anything about it. On the contrary: they contaminate their own good idea by allowing their friends on the market, to sell whatever they like: products without any relation with ECO or organic or farming.
In other words: the ladies are dishonest.
Ask them for the mission statement they issued and compare that to what they are doing.

There is poor communication and no leadership. Whatever rules there might be, they are not or poorly applied. If these ladies had any authority, they have lost it in the meantime.

The problem has been growing over the last year and the honest farmers that are moving out are fed up with the fact that cheaters have a free ride with “non organic products”, while they themselves dedicate their complete lives to clean, sustainable farming.
It is a shame what is happening.
There are still honest vendors of quality products at the market, some of them only because they need the traffic and the turnover...
However, it is a problem is that they have to compete with cheaters.

The management of the market should first of all serve the clients who have shown interest in the market, by complete and honest information about the status of vendors and products. In that case the leaving farmers will come back and stay.
If they do not, the market will slowly desintegrate and disappear.

[dumpy]

The problem with the ECO / Organic / Farmers market is the management.
Some ladies had a good idea (indeed: a good idea!) but the idea has grown and they have not.
These ladies know that there are cheating vendors at the market and they do not do anything about it. On the contrary: they contaminate their own good idea by allowing their friends on the market, to sell whatever they like: products without any relation with ECO or organic or farming.
In other words: the ladies are dishonest.
Ask them for the mission statement they issued and compare that to what they are doing.

There is poor communication and no leadership. Whatever rules there might be, they are not or poorly applied. If these ladies had any authority, they have lost it in the meantime.

The problem has been growing over the last year and the honest farmers that are moving out are fed up with the fact that cheaters have a free ride with “non organic products”, while they themselves dedicate their complete lives to clean, sustainable farming.
It is a shame what is happening.
There are still honest vendors of quality products at the market, some of them only because they need the traffic and the turnover...
However, it is a problem is that they have to compete with cheaters.

The management of the market should first of all serve the clients who have shown interest in the market, by complete and honest information about the status of vendors and products. In that case the leaving farmers will come back and stay.
If they do not, the market will slowly desintegrate and disappear.

[Johan]

To Canamex
I appreciate your extensive story about the Farmers market, but I have some remarks and additional information and also questions. I think that the original principle of the organic or farmers market is a great thing that should be carefully protected. Below I quote parts of your texts and give my observations.

Where possible, organic is used
That may be true, but if it is not organic it should not be presented and sold as such.

People do not want to pay for some organic goods….because of high price, imports
The market mechanism will do its work. Less or no demand means less or non production
But that does not mean that “non organic” competition should be allowed at the market, they have other outlets.

Get rid of dishonest vendors
This should happen at all times at all types of markets. However, not even an attempt has been made by the committee of the Farmers Market.

Ask the ones at Tabarka where they get their water from.
Did you ask them or do you know something and do you have any reason to doubt the quality of the products of those organic farmers? Tell us! Or is this an attempt to smear them?

Attempt to satisfy customer demand for variety and to be honest
That attempt has led to allowing restaurants selling their products at the farmers market. However, they already have their outlet, so what are they doing there? Are they selling organic food? No they do not. They should simply stay away or at a “food court” separated from the market.
And what about clothing? What is it doing at the market if it is not made from organic fibers?
And what about vendors that lie when asked about the status of their vegetables, fruit, meat?
Is that satisfying the customers? The committee knows them already a long time and nothing happens.
Honesty should be number one and at the same time it sets limits to the variety within the concept.

Most people display signs whether they are organic, and ingredients are listed.
Indeed, there are vendors that do that. And all of them should. But most of them do not!

The change from Organic to Farmers Market is in the interest of honesty. Moreover, the original goal was to be ecologically conscious, not 100% organic.
Great. But what is left from that goal when you walk over the market? Does it show that everybody is trying to move towards fully organic? Are the vendors clear and honest?

If you think anyone is using pesticides you should report them.
To the committee, I assume? And then, what will happen next? I have reported vendors months ago. Nothing has happened. They are still doing the same.

Ask questions, they will do their best to answer.
All vendors are supposed to know their products in detail because they are producing them (I hope) and they should answer clearly and completely and honestly. What is your suggestion for liers?

What is bad about having 3 markets?
There should be only one market that is offering organic products. That market could allow also certain products that are not organic because it is (almost) impossible to produce them the organic way. In that sense there is room for uncertified farmers who produce an honest and clean product.
All vendors should try and present organic where possible, and free from hormones, pesticides and other chemical products at all times.
The Wednesday market is for everything else.
And the Monday market is for restaurants and other prepared food, that is not organic or not guaranteed 100% natural.

It´s giving away a recipe
Listing ingredients is something different than giving away a recipe.
All vendors should give complete information about the ingredients of their products or sell them elsewhere.

[Mad_Max]

That was my thinking exactly, PULELEHUA. If the "certified organics" (or whatever) felt they needed to separate themselves, then it makes great sense to set up a second market on the same day, same time, same area very nearby. How easy and convenient.

From a shoppers point of view, the last thing we need is yet another market day.

And thanks for clearing up the issues in your post, Canamex.

Are there really any "certified organic" vendors? I know ACA wasn't - they could not afford the certification. I am guessing that a lot, like ACA, would use organic methods - but the local small grower is probably not going to have any organic certification. But from my perspective, organically grown is okay - as the produce is really fresh - and I understand that the certification would be cost prohibitive.

This market is put together by volunteers and I would guess they have spent a significant amount of their time to make this work - I find it embarrassing to see them attacked like this on this forum. It would seem to me that if you have complaints, try a constructive approach - as I don't think this type of bashing is productive for anyone.

[the walkers]

I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is anybody doing this now? At a time when so many people have left, and the original market has moved to an out-of-the-way place for many: now we need to segregate the organic from the non-organic...hold it on the same day at the same time... and continue to have the Monday market on top of that?

I think I like the old-fashioned concept: one market, every week, for decades.

heard that the reason was that they didn't like paying 50p fee to set up a stand....

[lcscats]

You know I have heard this story before. Us versus Them. You can fill in the Us and Them and you always end up with this.
I just enjoyed the market. Not so sure I want to walk the carraterra and the car parking skills were bad enough at the mall
I can imagine the backing up and such at the new location or locations. Better marketing folks and find a way for Organic
and non Organic to be in one place but mark the food better so folks know. I think Farmers market is more important than
what type of market it is. Good Labeling or segregation could allow both to survive in one environment.

[simpsca]

The problem I see is that I went to the bigger market first, bought what I needed. Then I went to the one at Tabarka and there were very few products there - they looked nice but I had already bought most of what was at Tabarka. It's also a very small area so don't know how they would fit many vendors into the space.