21 replies to this topic

[verchiel]

I attended the community meeting on the Ajijic Plaza on Wednesday. I heard the police chief say that, "In a town of 70,000 people, he has only 200 police officers."

First, did I hear that correctly? If you heard something else, please say so.

I am trying to draw a comparison to other 70,000 population cities in the USA or Canada, or elsewhere, to see how we stack up with our 70,000:200.

I think understanding the issues with our police force insofar as numbers, training and pay go is essential to our ongoing security. I don't think we can effect any long-term solution with the narco problem, because they are spurred on by an international market for drugs, the underpinnings of which we do not control.

But we (Mexicans, expats) might have some say in the power of our local police force.

Just noodling things ... inputs are welcome.

[wisecracker]

The statistics in Canada per 100,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Canada

[halcon]

yes, i think you're on the right track, but effecting change is a slippery slope for gringos. in the end
it is the mexicans themselves who must arrize and recognize. while they are a sweet and lovable
people, i can't help but think that could be a long time commin'.

please count to 5 before you respond........

[Canookie]

According to Statistics Canada

"there were 69,299 active police officers in Canada on May 15, 2010, an increase of almost 2,000 officers from 2009. The national-level increase was primarily driven by growth in Ontario (803 additional officers, or +2% in the rate) and Alberta (403 additional officers, or +5% in the rate).



Nationally, there were 203 police officers per 100,000 population in 2010, the highest rate seen since 1981."




For example, Victoria on Vancouver Island - Population 93,097 has 211 police officers.
In Sault Ste Marie Ontario, total police number including civilian personnel was 199 (2010), for 75,000 people.

In 2009 in the U.S.

on average the ratio was

about 2.3 officers per thousand residents; larger cities have higher ratios.

Dubuque Iowa is considered a great to live. it has 106 police officers with a population of about 57,000
so the average is 1.73 and Iowa's average is 1.75 police to population.

Interesting info! Thanks.

[Canookie]

sorry, don't know why my previous post had all the spaces and weird fonts!

[Ginger]

Comparing stats to NOB is apples & oranges, I think. NOB the police have better communications, equipment, better trained law enforcement in most cases & the type of crime is different. And the cultural differences are there as well. Mostly, people aren't afraid to report crimes.

[Jeanette]

Another difference is that NOB the police actually show up. Sadly, the same cannot be said in Mexico.

[mexicolindo]

I agree with Ginger... comparing Mexico to USA or Canada is not fair. I think Mexico can be comparable to Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, but not 2 of the riches countries on earth!

[More Liana]

And of course he was speaking of the municipio de Chapala, I believe, not just the town of Chapala. Those 200 police cover a very large area. The municipio de Chapala ranges from the municipio deTlajomulco on the northwest to the municipio de Poncitlán on the northeast and from Poncitlán to Jocotepec. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Animalover]

I agree with Ginger... comparing Mexico to USA or Canada is not fair. I think Mexico can be comparable to Argentina, Brazil, South Africa, but not 2 of the riches countries on earth!

yes! that is why the idiosyncrasy is quite different! it is first world, so the people think of course in a different way, that is why there is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference!

[mexicolindo]

And of course he was speaking of the municipio de Chapala, I believe, not just the town of Chapala. Those 200 police cover a very large area. The municipio de Chapala ranges from the municipio deTlajomulco on the northwest to the municipio de Poncitlán on the northeast and from Poncitlán to Jocotepec. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree Moreliana, I think he just doubled the number (?), or he added Jocotepec (?), or just he doesn´t know how many people he is protecting (????)... Here is a link of the inegi with information of the population of the municipiios of Jalisco.

http://cuentame.ineg...px?tema=me&e=14

[Travis]

I was there. He was definitely referring to the population of the entire municipality, which of course covers a much bigger geographic area. As to number of officers, I thought I heard him say ciento cuarenta - 140 - but I could be wrong about that. The article in the Guadalajara Reporter says 110 officers. Don't know where the 200 number comes from.

[Mad_Max]

Comparing stats to NOB is apples & oranges, I think. NOB the police have better communications, equipment, better trained law enforcement in most cases & the type of crime is different. And the cultural differences are there as well. Mostly, people aren't afraid to report crimes.

Don't forget the difference in responsibilities. Are you willing to analyze the differences in job descriptions between the municipal police, state, ministerio publico etc with the different job responsiblities NOB? You surely have to do that before comparing the number assigned here and there - as it really should fall out by job responsibility is my initial take - . Sounds like a monumental task - assuming you have had some solid statistic background, probably could finish in a year or two - assuming you could get the information needed. Then if you want peer review - maybe add another 6 months or so.

Seems to me that anything less has no value -

But this is an old discussion. Maybe comes up once every two months. Seems to me that it comes up because of a lack of understanding of the mexican police/judicial system - plus all of Ginger comments. Everyone usually understands the police/judicial system they were brought up with - and some regretfully try to layer those expectations onto the police/judicial system in this county. Doesn't work.

[bmh]

I would not trust the 200 number Capitan Contreras was crying very recentlly that they only had 120 policemen and the GR just reported he had 110.

[HANSI]

Mexicolindo, during the last census a lot of people were not counted.The official count for the municipality based on INEGI
figures is 48,839. I belive Contreras,s figures are closer to the true number of inhabitants.
We never had 200 policemen in the municipality.I remember him stating that there were 120 policemen.Perhaps some were
fired others quit.

More Liana, the northwest border of the Chapala municipality is with Ixtlahuacan de los Membrillos.

Why do we always end up comparing things to NOB situations? We live in Chapala where things are different.If you want to make comparisons, compare us to an other municipality in Jalisco with same number of inhabitants.

[verchiel]

yes, i think you're on the right track, but effecting change is a slippery slope for gringos. in the end
it is the mexicans themselves who must arrize and recognize. while they are a sweet and lovable
people, i can't help but think that could be a long time commin'.

please count to 5 before you respond........

Yes, but I wonder if we supply data that opens the eyes of, say, the Mexican business community, that they might take action. In no way do I think expats should arm themselves with data and march into the police department demanding things. (Frankly, I think we sort of burned up our capital when, at the meeting on the plaza, the main expat complaint sort of boiled down to whether the PD speaks English or not ... as if none of us has a clue about what's really important to the Mexicans at this time, i.e., it's not all about us!) But we might be able to act as consultants of sorts to those within the culture who can make a difference.

[verchiel]

Mexicolindo, during the last census a lot of people were not counted.The official count for the municipality based on INEGI
figures is 48,839. I belive Contreras,s figures are closer to the true number of inhabitants.
We never had 200 policemen in the municipality.I remember him stating that there were 120 policemen.Perhaps some were
fired others quit.

More Liana, the northwest border of the Chapala municipality is with Ixtlahuacan de los Membrillos.

Why do we always end up comparing things to NOB situations? We live in Chapala where things are different.If you want to make comparisons, compare us to an other municipality in Jalisco with same number of inhabitants.

I disagree that there is no value in comparing to NOB cities ... as the crime up north is just as bad in many areas, and some places keep a lid on it better than others. Things might be learned. Crime fighting is cultural, but it is based in rule of law, and the rule of law is a philosophical necessity in any democracy, here or north or south of Mexico. Or, we could compare it to other Latin American cities. I think cross-cultural comparisons are good, and often times more clearly point up the inherent problems with the culture to the people who emanate from it, than if you compare it only to a mirror-image.

[verchiel]

Comparing stats to NOB is apples & oranges, I think. NOB the police have better communications, equipment, better trained law enforcement in most cases & the type of crime is different. And the cultural differences are there as well. Mostly, people aren't afraid to report crimes.

You know, I attended a neighborhood meeting just today run by my Mexican neighbors, mostly about how to protect the children and get their childhoods going again. Throughout all the discussions, there was a sub-textual thread of wanting things to be different between the police and the citizens, wanting to trust the police, wanting better law enforcement and prosecution. Expats from NOB might want to yawn and say, "Understand that things are just different here, stop trying to force our NOB values here," when in fact, the internet, television, and increasing exposure to metropolitan sophistication means that the humble Mexicans in the villages probably yearn for adequate law enforcement, just as we do NOB.

[halcon]

good, then maybe they are catching on and will put some pressure where it is needed.
i heard that the mexican women were the more vocal at this last meeting. other than the
obvious concern for the children, anyone care to hazard a guess why.
don't start no ****, 'cause i aint ready !

[Alex]

good, then maybe they are catching on and will put some pressure where it is needed.
i heard that the mexican women were the more vocal at this last meeting. other than the
obvious concern for the children, anyone care to hazard a guess why.
don't start no ****, 'cause i aint ready !

In this society, and to some extent in "ours," women can get away with certain things that men can't. The Mexican women were amazingly confrontational to the Chief. They repeatedly insulted him. They called him a liar. They jeered him over and over when they disagreed or disapproved with what he had to say. They told him that they didn't trust him or his cops. The Chief had to suck it up and remain a gentleman to the women. If confronted in such a way by men, he would have felt compelled to respond in kind. The meeting would have turned into an argument rather a discussion, heated as it was. I noticed some Mexican men were minding the children in order to allow the women the opportunity to confront the Chief.

I remember seeing a fight break out during the big fiesta one year. Someone stepped in between the two men who were fighting in order to stop it. Four policemen arrived and jumped the peacemaker, taking him to the ground and beating him. A dozen teenaged girls jumped on the cops, kicked them and pulled their hair, called them "pendejos" and "$%&/()os." Meanwhile a fifth cop menacingly waved his automatic rifle at the teenaged boys who were watching, never once pointing his rifle at the girls who were beating on the other four cops. The cops never struck back at any of the girls. The girls knew they could get away with this behavior while the boys knew that, right or wrong, they could not.