[Chippy]

I had a conversation at Chase Bank today here in MI re: the ATM fraud going on in Mexico and their suggestions if traveling. One important item I learned today is that any fraud committed using a PIN will NOT be reimbursed, by Chase at least. So if the criminals are using a camera to record your PIN as you enter it at an ATM and also a skimmer to get your card #, you are out of luck if they drain your account using a cloned card with subsequent withdrawals or any purchase made with a PIN (vs a credit card charge on your debit card).

Debit cards usually have a VISA or Mastercard logo and can be used as credit cards as well as debit cards. Convenient, but this allows more opportunity for fraud. The bank also told me that the cc security code printed on the back of the debit and credit cards are NOT part of the data in the magnetic strip on the cards. So, in order to get that information, the criminals would need to photograph the back of the card, or steal the card physically.

All ATM debit cards have daily cash withdrawal limits, but if the limit is fraudulently taken each day using the PIN and the cloned card, while the owner is on vacation and not able to check daily balances, it might not take long to drain an account with fraudulent withdrawals. Say you have a $5,000 balance and a $1,000 daily limit on cash withdrawals. In 5 days, it's gone.

What is important here is that I did not realize that Chase is not responsible for any fraudulent use of a PIN. The bank said they have no way of knowing if you gave the PIN to someone or if you were negligent in some way to gain access to your PIN (writing the PIN on a slip of paper and enclosing that paper with your card in your wallet, for example). I explained how the criminals are using tiny cameras to photograph PIN numbers while transactions are being made, then cloning the cards using skimmers, but Chase said they would have no way to prove that that's what happened with the PIN.

I know where Chase stands on this. For those of you who have been ripped off through the use of cloned ATM cards, was the rip off fraudulent charges (which were reimbursed) or fraudulent ATM withdrawals using your cloned card and PIN. If it was fraudulent ATM withdrawals, did your bank reimburse you? If so, which banks? I don't know if Chase's loss policy re: PIN transactions is the same as other banks, or if the losses reported on this board were from charges made illegally using the ATM debit card with a VISA logo. I'd like to hear from folks who have had losses to clarify. Thanks.

[Meerkat]

A couple of months ago, 16,000 pesos was removed from my HSBC account over a 3-day period. I use a Mexico-issued HSBC debit card and at that time, only withdrew funds from their HSBC ATMs at Walmart and Superlake. My funds were returned 2 days after I had reported the transactions.

[Chippy]

Meerkat, on 10 March 2010 - 06:54 PM, said:

A couple of months ago, 16,000 pesos was removed from my HSBC account over a 3-day period. I use a Mexico-issued HSBC debit card and at that time, only withdrew funds from their HSBC ATMs at Walmart and Superlake. My funds were returned 2 days after I had reported the transactions.

Thanks for that information. I assume the removal of your funds was via a fraudulent withdrawal and not a fraudulent purchase. (Purchases are protected.) I am considering changing banks before moving SoB. I may have another conversation with Chase to clarify after I hear from others on this board, though they were pretty clear..... Thanks for posting.

[Mainecoons]

They stole my wife's card number and PIN at the machine over by the storage place and Walmart in Ajijic. Wells Fargo covered it, they admitted that their own security system has failed. We set up another account with very limited funds and additional checking for future usage.

[Intercasa]

One way to limit this type of fraud would be to say have 2 accounts at B of A, one checking and one savings and keep very little in the checking and transfer from the savings account to the checking about the amount you'll withdraw right before you go to the bank.

[Doolittle]

We had a Chase card years ago and had huge diffictulties with them. I would never have an account with Chase or any other big bank ever again.

[Irish Gal]

Mainecoons, on 10 March 2010 - 07:43 PM, said:

They stole my wife's card number and PIN at the machine over by the storage place and Walmart in Ajijic. Wells Fargo covered it, they admitted that their own security system has failed. We set up another account with very limited funds and additional checking for future usage.

I assume you are referring to the Scotiabank ATM. How did "they" steal your wife's card number and PIN? This is the machine I've been using for the past five years and so far, no problem.

[Chippy]

Mainecoons, on 10 March 2010 - 07:43 PM, said:

They stole my wife's card number and PIN at the machine over by the storage place and Walmart in Ajijic. Wells Fargo covered it, they admitted that their own security system has failed. We set up another account with very limited funds and additional checking for future usage.

Were there fraudulent withdrawals made using your PIN?

[privado]

There is a consistent point that keeps appearing in both threads about ATM problems

Everybody is using a Debit Card for an American Bank- WHY?
If you are living in Mexico full time- Why continue to use a bank in the US or Canada with a Foreign ATM for your monthly expenses? If you own a home here- why not Mexican bank account?

My experience- for almost 3 years I used my Debit card from BofA in Calif-Had my account there for 30 years.
I used Santander for my withdrawals and got charged $5.00US every time- After numerous discussions with BofA - I was promised a credit for these charges- never happened-. I instead received a Class Action Lawsuit Form for foreign Transactions where I had to go back for 3 years to itemize every transaction to be part of the claimant group to get my money back. @#$%^&&. I went to Calif. and talked to them-Still No credit.
Occasionally, they would close my access because card was being used in Mexico ( usually on a 3 day holiday weekend) then I had no money for the weekend.

A good friend is an executive in an Investment Bank here. He told me, when the peso exchange rate goes above 12.00 to 1.00 US they buy pesos for their commercial multi million $$$ customers. He advised me to open a Mexican Bank Account for my yearly living expenses.

Following his recommendation I opened an account at Bancomers Patromonial Bank-over a year ago. Not only do they pay a high rate of interest- they are the largest in Mexico and have more ATM's locations than any other bank-Thus you can always find a secure ATM and not pay a fee.
In addition, I get better customer service than I ever had in the US,they automatically pay monthly expenses and their fraud unit telephones me every time a transaction for a charge exceeds $5,000.00.

Last week, I had repairs done at the Jeep Dealer, Bought extra stuff at Costco etc- they called me 2 times to verify the transactions. When I wanted to withdraw 15,000.00MN -at my own branch- teller had to get managers approval with my passport and Visa. Some may consider this over protection-But I've never had a problem with my ATM transactions since. AS my friend told me- If you are going to choose to live in Mexico then you need to have a Mexican Bank account.
I no longer use my American Credit cards in Mexico for anything.

[bournemouth]

privado, on 11 March 2010 - 01:39 PM, said:

There is a consistent point that keeps appearing in both threads about ATM problems

Everybody is using a Debit Card for an American Bank- WHY?
If you are living in Mexico full time- Why continue to use a bank in the US or Canada with a Foreign ATM for your monthly expenses? If you own a home here- why not Mexican bank account?

My experience- for almost 3 years I used my Debit card from BofA in Calif-Had my account there for 30 years.
I used Santander for my withdrawals and got charged $5.00US every time- After numerous discussions with BofA - I was promised a credit for these charges- never happened-. I instead received a Class Action Lawsuit Form for foreign Transactions where I had to go back for 3 years to itemize every transaction to be part of the claimant group to get my money back. @#$%^&&. I went to Calif. and talked to them-Still No credit.
Occasionally, they would close my access because card was being used in Mexico ( usually on a 3 day holiday weekend) then I had no money for the weekend.

A good friend is an executive in an Investment Bank here. He told me, when the peso exchange rate goes above 12.00 to 1.00 US they buy pesos for their commercial multi million $$$ customers. He advised me to open a Mexican Bank Account for my yearly living expenses.

Following his recommendation I opened an account at Bancomers Patromonial Bank-over a year ago. Not only do they pay a high rate of interest- they are the largest in Mexico and have more ATM's locations than any other bank-Thus you can always find a secure ATM and not pay a fee.
In addition, I get better customer service than I ever had in the US,they automatically pay monthly expenses and their fraud unit telephones me every time a transaction for a charge exceeds $5,000.00.

Last week, I had repairs done at the Jeep Dealer, Bought extra stuff at Costco etc- they called me 2 times to verify the transactions. When I wanted to withdraw 15,000.00MN -at my own branch- teller had to get managers approval with my passport and Visa. Some may consider this over protection-But I've never had a problem with my ATM transactions since. AS my friend told me- If you are going to choose to live in Mexico then you need to have a Mexican Bank account.
I no longer use my American Credit cards in Mexico for anything.

There are few safeguards with a Mexican account - even less than with a NOB bank. I have no wish to transfer chunks of change into pesos at any point and no bank in the Chapala area has dollar accounts for private individuals - yes, they do for businesses. Dealing with a Mexican bank is time consuming and frustrating, even when you have the most agreeable of managers. Bank charges in this country are obscene unless you stick to a no fee/no interest account.

I can remember the time when the peso was devalued back in the 80's and dollar accounts were frozen at the old exchange rate, turned into pesos without a by your leave. We knew people who had all their retirement in accounts in Mexico and in one day they lost a huge percentage of that cash and had to return north to go back to work. No, I'll leave things they way they are thank you. A small peso account here for convenience and emergencies - one can get checks cashed at Intercam, Lloyds, Multiva and other locations and that may have to be the way we go for the future.

[rufus]

I too remember those unfortunate days in Mexican banking. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Rufus

[Intercasa]

There is a procedure to get money back for fraud here in Mexico. Well worth the try if your bank is a Mexican bank.

[privado]

bournemouth, on 11 March 2010 - 02:51 PM, said:

There are few safeguards with a Mexican account - even less than with a NOB bank. I have no wish to transfer chunks of change into pesos at any point and no bank in the Chapala area has dollar accounts for private individuals - yes, they do for businesses. Dealing with a Mexican bank is time consuming and frustrating, even when you have the most agreeable of managers. Bank charges in this country are obscene unless you stick to a no fee/no interest account.

I can remember the time when the peso was devalued back in the 80's and dollar accounts were frozen at the old exchange rate, turned into pesos without a by your leave. We knew people who had all their retirement in accounts in Mexico and in one day they lost a huge percentage of that cash and had to return north to go back to work. No, I'll leave things they way they are thank you. A small peso account here for convenience and emergencies - one can get checks cashed at Intercam, Lloyds, Multiva and other locations and that may have to be the way we go for the future.

25 years ago??- Time to come out of the past- Mexico is no longer a 3rd world country- after what happened to Goldman Sacks and AIG. Bernie Mardoff and others last year, your comments seem antiquated and out of touch with the reality of world banking - every Mexican Bank is tied financially to the Major American Banks.

[bournemouth]

privado, on 11 March 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

25 years ago??- Time to come out of the past- Mexico is no longer a 3rd world country- after what happened to Goldman Sacks and AIG. Bernie Mardoff and others last year, your comments seem antiquated and out of touch with the reality of world banking - every Mexican Bank is tied financially to the Major American Banks.

And that is supposed to make us trust local banks - I think not.

[Doolittle]

privado, on 11 March 2010 - 06:30 PM, said:

25 years ago??- Time to come out of the past- Mexico is no longer a 3rd world country- after what happened to Goldman Sacks and AIG. Bernie Mardoff and others last year, your comments seem antiquated and out of touch with the reality of world banking - every Mexican Bank is tied financially to the Major American Banks.

NO THEY'RE NOT; Santander is Spain, HSBC is Hong Kong, ScotiaBank is Canada, and so on. I think it's you that's not in touch with the reality of the banking world. Regardless, they're subject to Mexican law and the whims of Mexican politics.

[slumdog]

Having dealt with a number of banks in Mexico, I can safely say that YES: they are still operating, in most instances, like an underdeveloped country. The peso could still easily be devalued like it was in '94 (The December Mistake), and at least twice before that in the last 30 years. Bournemouth is absolutely correct, and there's nothing in his statement that suggests undue criticism of Mexico in general.

[Intercasa]

Stability is brought by having foreign banks but also it brings jealousy as you can see by recent comments in the news about once again nationalizing banks so that Mexico has more control over them.

[solajijic]

Sounds about right since they are scrutinizing government officials for narco money corruption how are public officials going to get rich now. Nationalize the banks again and then they can be in charge of all the money.
It's that 100 year curse time coming around again.

[bournemouth]

Getting back to the original post, there is a very long thread on the Falling in Love with Mexico forum, out of San Miguel de Allende, on this subject. The last few posts talk about a bot ring that has been taken down, albeit briefly, that uses malware to come up with card and pin numbers. It may be nothing to do with the actual ATM's we are using and all to do with malware. A scary situation.

[joco69]

slumdog, on 12 March 2010 - 01:46 AM, said:

Having dealt with a number of banks in Mexico, I can safely say that YES: they are still operating, in most instances, like an underdeveloped country. The peso could still easily be devalued like it was in '94 (The December Mistake), and at least twice before that in the last 30 years. Bournemouth is absolutely correct, and there's nothing in his statement that suggests undue criticism of Mexico in general.

I don't agree that Mexican Banks are any worse than US or Canadian Banks. I have been well served the last 15 years by todays BANCOMER and ACTINVER who is in the process of becoming a fullfledged Bank.
Bancomer now accepts Canadian checks at the same rate that the ATM machine will give you, less the 3$ charge and no charge for my checks back in Canada. They freeze the checks proceeds for 3 weeks which is pretty fair and this lets you plan your deposits in accordance with your needs.
I have experienced frauds in the past on my Bancomer card at Restaurants in Guadalajara, the procedure to get the money credited back into my account was hassle free.
Bancomer in Ajijic has bilingual officers so everybody can deal with them, the latest addition is Adalberto who came from the former Lloyds.
I still like to use my Canadian Credit Card for purchases, locking in the daily exchange rate.