bdlngton Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 I see posts on other forums where people state the are "fluent" in Spanish. That got me wondering how people define "fluency" in a second language. I am not talking about being a native speaker or bilingual. I mean speaking a second language that was not learned alongside your native language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbleitch Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 When an individual says he/she is fluent in an other than first language, that individual's actual measurable fluency could be all over the place. There is a big range of "fluency" between being able to conduct everyday household business, expressing opinions, every day conversation with family and friends, etc., and defending a thesis in an academic environment. If you are interested in what various oral fluency levels involve, you might get a kick out of looking at the ACTFL (American Council of Teachers of a Foreign Languayes) proficiency levels. There is an actual Oral Proficiency Interview (OPI) that will designate a level at which an individual communicates. There is a lot more to "fluency" than what the average person realizes. ACTFL proficiency levels http://www.languagetesting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ACTFLProficiencyGuidelines-2012-Speaking.pdf Oral Proficiency Interview http://www.languagetesting.com/oral-proficiency-interview-opi I have a bachelor's degree in Spanish. Thirty eight years ago, I was a regularly enrolled student in classes at one of the top universities in Perú for two semesters. I then used the language in the reinsurance industry for 15 years, including the drafting of reinsurance contracts and negotiating deals with native speakers before bailing from the corporate world and entering the field of education. I would probably consider myself to usually be at the "advanced high" level, although I'm guessing that I was probably approaching the "superior" level during my last year in university after I had lived and studied for a year in Lima. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Not an expert opinion at all here. I define fluent as very close to speaking and understanding a language as a native speaker does. To me the real mark of being fluent is understanding and using idioms. Without that, you're still a stranger looking in at another language that you don't quite get. If someone says they're fluent on a forum and is soliciting work in anyway, I would expect them to be able to represent me the same as a native speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Not an expert opinion at all here. I define fluent as very close to speaking and understanding a language as a native speaker does. To me the real mark of being fluent is understanding and using idioms. Without that, you're still a stranger looking in at another language that you don't quite get.I'm not an expert either,but I think your definition of fluent,especially the comment about idioms is correct.Every Mexican knows what (a lo que te truje Chencha) means,but I doubt that many non-native "fluent" Spanish speakers do,just an example. I learn new words and phrases in Spanish everyday and yet I know that I'll never speak it like a native speaker. I read somewhere that to truly be fluent in another language you should be able to tackle a crossword puzzle in that language.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slainte39 Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I read somewhere that to truly be fluent in another language you should be able to tackle a crossword puzzle in that language. . In your case, I thought it was when you won your first argument with your wife.....in Spanish. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 When an individual says he/she is fluent in an other than first language, that individual's actual measurable fluency could be all over the place. There is a big range of "fluency" between being able to conduct everyday household business, expressing opinions, every day conversation with family and friends, etc., and defending a thesis in an academic environment. If you are interested in what various oral fluency levels involve, you might get a kick out of looking at the ACTFL (American Council of Teachers of a Foreign Languayes) proficiency levels. There is an actual Oral Proficiency Interview (OPI) that will designate a level at which an individual communicates. There is a lot more to "fluency" than what the average person realizes. ... . "There is a big range of "fluency" between being able to conduct everyday household business, expressing opinions, every day conversation with family and friends, etc., and defending a thesis in an academic environment. " Very cool. Following these perspectives, most Americans are barely marginally fluent in English, as Madison Ave. and big media evaluations have found that average Americans function at a 5'th grade level ... which also explains why Trump is so popular as professional linguistic studies show Trump speaks at a 4'th grader's level. fascinating How do these concepts of varying fluency apply to typical Mexicans? I've found it can be a big trap to learn Spanish from publicommon Mexican conversations, as most Mexicans don't even learn how to use all of their 14 verb tenses until the 2'nd year of secondary school - like learning English from a cockney east-ender. Let the argy-bargy begin ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I'm not an expert either,but I think your definition of fluent,especially the comment about idioms is correct. Every Mexican knows what (a lo que te truje Chencha) means,but I doubt that many non-native "fluent" Spanish speakers do,just an example. I learn new words and phrases in Spanish everyday and yet I know that I'll never speak it like a native speaker. I read somewhere that to truly be fluent in another language you should be able to tackle a crossword puzzle in that language. . . "I read somewhere that to truly be fluent in another language you should be able to tackle a crossword puzzle in that language." Yet more evidence that most Americans and most Mexicans are barely fluent in their native languages? ... Consider the level of most posts on expat forums. Remember the reactions of some very adamant posters that all longer posts are automatically annoying and unacceptable, especially if the post includes some novel perspectives. " Intermediate Low speakers express personal meaning by combining and recombining what they know and what they hear from their interlocutors into short statements and discrete sentences." ... They are also able to ask a few appropriate questions. Intermediate Low speakers manage to sustain the functions of the Intermediate level, although just barely. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 In your case, I thought it was when you won your first argument with your wife.....in Spanish. LOL I have yet to win an arguement with my wife,I don't even try anymore,now I just say, (si lo tu que digas). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdlngton Posted October 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I am aware of the ACTFL oral proficiency interview/test having taken it in the past and scoring an advanced high. I probably could have scored superior if I had read the descriptions of each level before going to the interview to better understand what was being looked for. I also wondered at the time if the person doing the interview questioned some of my language because he was not accustomed to Colombian vocabulary. I never use the word "fluent" to describe my command of Spanish. I prefer "highly proficient." I am well aware of my shortcomings in the language. As far as idioms go, some are commonly used in Spanish everywhere yet there are also those which vary from one country (or even region of a country) to another. To me true fluency means being able to use the language learned as a second language almost equally as well as one's native language. This is not bilingual, as that means being raised in and using both languages equally. And I have no idea what "a lo que te truje Chencha)" means but the biggest influence on my Spanish is Colombian Spanish, not Mexican. Please enlighten me Do you know what "colgar los guayos" means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 And I have no idea what "a lo que te truje Chencha)" means but the biggest influence on my Spanish is Colombian Spanish, not Mexican. Please enlighten me Do you know what "colgar los guayos" means? It means,do what you came to do and don't waste your time doing it,or (get to the point). I have no idea what "colgar los guayos" means. A Columbian I met in California remarked that I must have learned Spanish in Mexico because she said I had an "acento ranchero". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdlngton Posted October 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 It means,do what you came to do and don't waste your time doing it,or (get to the point). I have no idea what "colgar los guayos" means. A Columbian I met in California remarked that I must have learned Spanish in Mexico because she said I had an "acento ranchero". That's ColOmbia, with an O. Common mistake. In Colombia :"guayos" are soccer shoes, so "colgar los guayos" literally means to hang up your soccer shoes, but is an idiom for "to die." Similar to "estirar la pata." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Okay,here they say,"colgar los tenis". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slainte39 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 It means,do what you came to do and don't waste your time doing it,or (get to the point). I have no idea what "colgar los guayos" means. A Columbian I met in California remarked that I must have learned Spanish in Mexico because she said I had an "acento ranchero". ---------------------------------------- I learned the hard way the difference between coger in Mexico and Colombia. LOL Chris did the Ticos ever call you an "andale" because of your Spanish. They sure did me, and even worse, a "gringo andale".LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 David,the Ticos and especially the Ticas treated me very well,it was all,tuanis,pura vida and con toda la pata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slainte39 Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Oh yeah......?Que onda maje?........!pura vida! ...y toda la pata hasta yo estiro la pata. ...y !que lastima!...no hay tuanis en Mexico, solo buena onda, buena vida. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelpie Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 My high school Spanish teacher said it was when you start to "think" in Spanish, rather than translate it into your native language in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalu Posted January 13, 2016 Report Share Posted January 13, 2016 Pues, You are "fluent" if, having said so, you get the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clete Posted January 17, 2016 Report Share Posted January 17, 2016 Then there is http://www.dele.org/. As another poster has pointed out, there are levels of fluency. I was required to sit for the DELE exam during my naturalization process. I believe SRE only requires the very basic level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted January 18, 2016 Report Share Posted January 18, 2016 The level of fluency depends on the SRE office.gringal wrote in the past about how the Guadalajara office held her & her husband to higher standards than they could pass.http://www.chapala.com/webboard/index.php?showtopic=59055Over on Mexconnect, John Shrall, Viktor Remski and YucaLandia have written detailed accounts of their personal experiences at SRE when getting naturalized citizenship. Some SRE office's Spanish language standards evolve and change over time, some requiring only very low levels, as others (like Yucatan) currently have fairly rigorous standards:http://www.mexconnect.com/cgi-bin/forums/gforum.cgi?post=207337;search_string=citizenship;#207337 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clete Posted January 19, 2016 Report Share Posted January 19, 2016 Apparently so. If I recall from Mexconnect where you post as Yucalandia, your Spanish fluency was very basic which would probaly put thr language requirement there on a par with Colima where I applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted February 21, 2016 Report Share Posted February 21, 2016 angelpie, I do not think that is correct. I only thought in my language and translated with the first foreign language I learned after that with the others I never translated from one to the other . At least that is what happened to me and I think it is why the other languages are easier to learn.. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virgogirl Posted June 18, 2016 Report Share Posted June 18, 2016 When I apply for jobs here in New Mexico, I claim my Spanish is "functional" and explain that I can use it to speak to customers, for example, in various veins of language. I could speak to customers when I worked in an herb shop about remedios, a subject I am passionate about. Anytime I am in mexico, I am seeking out info on herbal medicine so can get going well on that subject. Recently, however, I re-entered the profession of mental health counselor and of course, just because I had lived and worked on the other side of the border they thought i could conduct therapy in Spanish. That would require absolute fluency, not just little pockets of functionality that I have. It is really important to know how to adequately and honestly claim your level under professional circumstances. That is why I use the word "functional". It's a little better than what people call "getting by". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 fluent is very subjecive but I would think it is when you are just as comfortable speaking and understanding a foreign language as your own. That does not mean you speak it without making mistakes but you hink in the foreign language and can switch back and forth without problems. There are degrees of fluency for exemple I am much more at ease speaking English when it comes to business, finance or computer, I am more at ease with poetry in French. And then you have the written language which is a different challenge for many people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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