Importing our truck

[barrisroom@aol.com]

We are in the process of deciding whom to use to import our truck.

Has anyone used Nacho and Carmen? If so , could you email me at heltonbcs@aol.com or pm on this board. Your experience with them

would be very, greatly appreciated. Thank you so much

[Intercasa]

Make sure you use people that are established, get a written contract, remember NOBODY actually does it at the airport, make sure the people have been in business at same location for over a year.

[snowyco]

One issue to consider when choosing your importer, if the truck is an American-titled used vehicle, be sure to use a broker who follows US law and formally exports the vehicle using the 3 day Homeland Security - US CBP formal export process, to avoid any future problems with Homeland Security - CBP.

For details, the US CBP issued a formal memo on this on Nov. 13, 2014, to notify "American titled used vehicle" owners of the law's requirements to export "all used-self-propelled vehicles" .

The link is posted at the end of the "US CBP Reminder on Formal Export Requirements prior to Permanent Vehicle Imports into Mexico" thread on this board. Since I can't seem to be able to copy the web-address of that page, here's a copy of the official memo: CBP Export FAQs on USPV 11-13-14.docx

If your truck is an American titled used truck, this legally rules out using importers or "facilitators" who do not take the US vehicle to the border for the CBP inspection.

[Jim Bowie]

One issue to consider when choosing your importer, if the truck is an American-titled used vehicle, be sure to use a broker who follows US law and formally exports the vehicle using the 3 day Homeland Security - US CBP formal export process, to avoid any future problems with Homeland Security - CBP.

And, if the owner of the US titled truck is a Mexican citizen and not a US citizen, then what needs to be done? Will this Mexican citizen be subject to a US fine? And, if so, who will come to collect it?

[cbviajero]

Make sure you use people that are established, get a written contract, remember NOBODY actually does it at the airport, make sure the people have been in business at same location for over a year.

From past posts you seem to be fairly familiar with this situation,is there any vehicle import facilitator here at lakeside or at the border who you would feel comfortable recommending?

[RVGRINGO]

I understand that it can only be done at the border.

Remember also, the truck must be a NAFTA manufactured vehicle and not of commercial size.

[snowyco]

And, if the owner of the US titled truck is a Mexican citizen and not a US citizen, then what needs to be done? Will this Mexican citizen be subject to a US fine? And, if so, who will come to collect it?

The wording of the US statute and the US Homeland Security - CBP memo seems clear:

"These regulations apply to all used-self-propelled vehicles. First-time and one-time exports will require completion and submission of all mandatory AES filing requirements 72 hours prior to export. "

All vehicles means that even Mexicans with American vehicles must follow the law.

Pair this part of the CFR quote with the CBP description from an earlier post about about what US vehicles and documents are required to be supplied to CBP for your question about "then what needs to be done?":

"2. For U.S. Titled Vehicles

Vehicles issued an original certificate of title. For used, self-propelled vehicles issued, by any jurisdiction in the United States, a Certificate of Title or a Salvage Title that remains in force, the owner must provide to Customs the original Certificate of Title or a Certified Copy of the Certificate of Title and two complete copies of the original Certificate of Title or the Certified Copy of the original. " http://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/export-docs/motor-vehicle

Note that I underlined the phrase that answers your question, along with the CBP requirements that the vehicle be submitted 72 hours prior to export, and submit the required documents.

The owner does not have to be a US citizen, it only has to be an American used vehicle.

For most people and most US vehicles, they just must have a valid US title for the US vehicle.

There are special requirements for American vehicles that have foreign titles (due to being previously imported into a foreign country, and special requirements for untitled vehicles (like new cars or scrapped/junk cars). For details on US vehicles without titles, see the other parts of Section 2 of the CBP website on "Exporting a Motor Vehicle - Interpretation and Application of 19 CFR Part 192" link listed above.

"Will this Mexican citizen be subject to a US fine? And, if so, who will come to collect it?"

There is a "$500 fine per agency guidelines" for individuals who break this law.

The US Dept of Justice has successfully prosecuted Mexicans for trying to avoid this part of Homeland Security - CBP laws.

An official US DOJ web report from 2010, describes the case of 2 Mexicans who pleaded guilty of of trying to avoid the CBP export law requirements by offering a $500 bribe to Homeland Security ICE - CBP officer, for being "in violation of the 72-hour requirement" to have a US vehicle formally exported.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/txs/1News/Releases/2010%20January/010610%20Juarez%20and%20Ovilla.htm

[Joco]

You need to export vehicles if the vehicles are being sold in a foreign country. The rule does not address private use vehicles.

Read to whom 192 applies:

http://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/export-docs/motor-vehicle

Interpretation and Application of 19 CFR Part 192

Section 192.1 Definitions

The following are general definitions for the purposes of CFR 192.2:

Export. "Export" refers to the transportation of merchandise out of the U.S. for the purpose of being entered into the commerce of a foreign country.

[RVGRINGO]

Hi, Joco. You have discovered just how many cannot read. They read the words, but don‘t comprehend the meaning of them.

[Intercasa]

I have not opined as I have a call into the Commerce Dept for them to show me where commerce is defined to apply to private parties, the other items subject to export regulation are software, arms, technology and instruments, not some old gringos Toyota or Ford. But then again this is the government so anything illogical or with unintended consequences is possible.

[Mainecoons]

Exactly. I think some are reading the law literally whereas it has been pointed out that the government has basically rewritten the original law without benefit of legislation to cover the private export of personal vehicles. At least that is how I read the most recent information that was posted on the other car import thread before it was closed.

This is hardly unusual for either the U.S. or the Mexican government bureaucracy. However, unless and until the Mexicans flat out require the export certification as part of the import process, one gets to chose whether one wants to risk a fine and just skip that part or not. Once the car is here and has been accepted by Jalisco for registration and plates, for all practical purposes the U.S. rules are moot.

It makes no sense to me why anyone would export a run of the mill motor vehicle from Mexico to the U.S. since the vehicle is going to get more wear and tear in Mexico yet at the same time can be sold for more than in the U.S.

RV has it right. Keep life simple. Leave your U.S. vehicle there and get one with all the correct paperwork AND Jalisco plates here. When you do that, getting it registered is a snap.

[snowyco]

When asked about their use of "commerce" and "commercial", US CPB officials explained that they use the broader definition of "commerce" as used in the US Constitution's Commerce clause, to include both private individuals and businesses.

US Law dictionaries like Wex - from the Cornell University Law School describe "commerce" in this way:

" The meaning of the word "commerce" is a source of much of the controversy. The Constitution does not explicitly define the word. Some argue that it refers simply to trade or exchange, while others claim that the founders intended to describe more broadly commercial and social intercourse between citizens of different states. "

The controversy is not over the application of "commerce" to just business activities, the controversy comes over:

"the interpretation of "commerce" affects the appropriate dividing line between federal and state power."

Pairing these legal understandings of "commerce", (as more than just business activities), with past Supreme Court rulings that applied the US Constitutions Commerce Clause solely to individuals - not just businesses - points to how CBP is fully within their rights to issue the memo to clarify that all US titled used vehicles must be legally exported from the USA before being imported into Mexico, regardless if the owner is a business or private individual.

Consider familiar legal precedents to describe and ascribe non-business uses of "commerce" in American law: The Civil Rights Act of 1964, that outlawed segregation and prohibited discrimination against individual African-Americans and against African-Americans as a group was passed under the Commerce Clause, under the activities of "commerce".

Joco and a few others personal lack of knowledge about the many past legal uses of the word "commerce" that clearly included private individual's activities, activities that do not involve businesses or business transactions, should not confuse people into advising readers to ignore the US CBP's latest memo they issued to address the specific issue of private individuals requirements to export their privately-owned, privately-operated used American vehicles.

On Nov. 13. 2014, the CBP experts intentionally wrote, italicized, and underlined all to answer the question requiring private individuals to export their US titled used vehicles under CBP - FTR law:

"These regulations apply to all used-self-propelled vehicles. First-time and one-time exports will require completion and submission of all mandatory AES filing requirements 72 hours prior to export. "

[Joco]

If a law does not state a person or entity then the law does not apply to that "something or someone."

The law must be explicit and state exactly what it means. If there is guessing then the law is not legal. This law clearly states that it applies to persons or companies exporting vehicles for the purpose of selling them in another country, the commerce of another country.

No where in the definitions does it read that it applies to private individuals taking a vehicle out of the country for private use. It refers to "commerce" which means business, not private non-commercial uses.

Yes, it describes the vehicles but all laws apply to humans not objects.

http://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/export-docs/motor-vehicle

Ultimate Purchaser. "Ultimate Purchaser" means the first person, other than a dealer purchasing in his capacity as a dealer, who in good faith purchases a self-propelled vehicle for purposes other than resale.

Structure of the Regulations

Procedurally, all exporters or their agents who present a document to Customs are to begin at 19 CFR 192.2 ( (1) and then progress through each subsection until the exporter arrives at the section and subsection(s) that apply to the vehicle that has been presented to Customs for export. This procedure ensures that no requirement is misinterpreted, misapplied, or circumvented by either the exporter or the reviewing Customs officer.

Ultimate Purchaser obviously refers to a vehicle that is exported and sold.

A private individual is not referred to as an exporter. An exporter is a person in the profession of exporting.

Commerce Clause of the Constitution

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is in the Commerce (Business) Code because the Commerce Code regulates businesses between states. The Civil Rights Act does not regulate private individuals. You as an individual are allowed to hate all the people you want to hate and even express it under the First Amendment. You can refuse entrance into your private home to anyone based upon any prejudiced and bigoted reason. The law cannot make you like people.

"It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me, but it can keep him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important." Martin Luther King, Jr.

Civil Rights Act of 1964 in the Commerce Code

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

principally its power to regulate interstate commerce under Article One (section 8), its duty to guarantee all citizens equal protection of the laws under the Fourteenth Amendment and its duty to protect voting rights under the Fifteenth Amendment.

Title II

Outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion or national origin in hotels, motels, restaurants, theaters, and all other public accommodations engaged in interstate commerce; exempted private clubs without defining the term "private"

There are partial and whole exceptions to Title VII for four types of employers:

Bona fide nonprofit private membership organizations.

After the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed, the Supreme Court upheld the law's application to the private sector, on the grounds that Congress has the power to regulate commerce between the States.

Private Sector means businesses that are in Interstate Commerce. Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v. United States, 379 U.S. 241 (1964)

Private Sector does not mean religions or individuals who are not in business.

What does Interstate Commerce mean? Definitions in the Commerce Code:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/10

The term “interstate commerce”, as used in this title, includes commerce between one State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia and another State, Territory, Possession, or the District of Columbia.

The term “foreign commerce”, as used in this title, includes commerce with a foreign country.

Definitions of Commerce:

Commerce:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/commerce

Although the terms commerce and trade are often used interchangeably, commerce refers to large-scale business activity, while trade describes commercial traffic within a state or a community.

http://thelawdictionary.org/commerce/

What is COMMERCE?

Intercourse by way of trade and traffic between different peoples or states and the citizens or inhabitants thereof, including not only the purchase, sale, and exchange of commodities, but also the instrumentalities and agencies by which it is promoted and the means and appliances by which it is carried on, and the transportation of persons as well as of goods, both by land and by sea.

It comprehends intercourse for the purposes of trade in any and all its forms, including the transportation, purchase, sale, and exchange of commodities between the citizens of our country and the citizens or subjects of other countries, and between the citizens of different states.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/commerce

an interchange of goods or commodities, especially on a large scale between different countries (foreign commerce) or between different parts of the same country (domestic commerce) trade; business.

The Rules obviously do not apply to private individuals so I hope Spencer gets an answer soon and posts it so this can be put to bed. It is ridiculous.

I apologize for using as much space as Snowyco.

[Mainecoons]

Once again Joco you do not appear to be paying attention to what these bureaucracies are actually doing, as opposed to your interpretation of the law. It definitely appears that the export requirement is being applied to the export of personal vehicles by Americans, at least by U.S. Customs. Your argument may make academic sense but it does not appear to be consistent with what is actually happening.

I think you've made a strong argument that the original law wasn't written to include personal vehicles exported by land. Unfortunately, the government bureaucracy on both sides of the border has quite gotten into the habit of writing their own laws these days and we have to deal with that reality.

What is also not so clear is whether the Mexicans will be requiring the U.S. export clearance as part of the importation process. If not, one who doesn't get the export certificate may have the hazard of a nominal fine and the more onerous problem of having to deal with these bureaucrats. On the other hand, theoretically if one doesn't formally export the vehicle and also keeps up the registration in a U.S. state like South Dakota, one could easily return the vehicle to the U.S. in the future.

Worn out suspension and all.

If I were importing a vehicle now, I'd assume it will be and get the export certificate. But frankly, I think these bureaucrats have made this process so onerous and expensive I'd think 10 times before importing any vehicle to Mexico.

Frankly, I think that is the real intent here. Make it such a hassle that most don't do it. Call it "closet" protectionism. How many stolen vehicles are brought across the border with correct and current titles and plates by someone with full ID that correspondes to the title one at a time? I'll wager not a whole bunch.

[barrisroom@aol.com]

Thank you all for your replies. I just want to buy a vehicle here- but HUBBY thinks this

truck is his BABY- To me is is making no sense, financially and emotionally , to pay more

than 50% of vehicle worth just so he can keep his BABY. Fortunately, or not, I am in charge

of the finances in this family, and am having real problems reconciling financial reality with

his emotions! AND THEY SAY "WOMEN ARE THE EMOTIONAL ONES! LOL

[Joco]

Once again Joco you do not appear to be paying attention to what these bureaucracies are actually doing, as opposed to your interpretation of the law. It definitely appears that the export requirement is being applied to the export of personal vehicles by Americans, at least by U.S. Customs. Your argument may make academic sense but it does not appear to be consistent with what is actually happening.

I think you've made a strong argument that the original law wasn't written to include personal vehicles exported by land. Unfortunately, the government bureaucracy on both sides of the border has quite gotten into the habit of writing their own laws these days and we have to deal with that reality.

What is also not so clear is whether the Mexicans will be requiring the U.S. export clearance as part of the importation process. If not, one who doesn't get the export certificate may have the hazard of a nominal fine and the more onerous problem of having to deal with these bureaucrats. On the other hand, theoretically if one doesn't formally export the vehicle and also keeps up the registration in a U.S. state like South Dakota, one could easily return the vehicle to the U.S. in the future.

Worn out suspension and all.

If I were importing a vehicle now, I'd assume it will be and get the export certificate. But frankly, I think these bureaucrats have made this process so onerous and expensive I'd think 10 times before importing any vehicle to Mexico.

Frankly, I think that is the real intent here. Make it such a hassle that most don't do it. Call it "closet" protectionism. How many stolen vehicles are brought across the border with correct and current titles and plates by someone with full ID that correspondes to the title one at a time? I'll wager not a whole bunch.

What Snowyco is arguing is a rule not a law. A rule cannot overwrite or change a law.

The rules clearly refer to people exporting for business, not private vehicles for personal use.

The U.S. is not changing its laws or rules to accommodate another country. I doubt the U.S. is concerned with a blue hair stealing a vehicle and fraudulently bringing it into Mexico. The thefts are with the professional exporters, not one person taking a car across the border.

The U.S. wants the professionals who export dozens to export through customs so they can catch stolen vehicles.

[CHILLIN]

The laws of commerce are international in nature. The U.S.A., and amateur pedants, cannot change international perception and interpretation of these laws. Every time they have tried, for example labeling extremely agitated religious zealots as terrorists, it all ends in tears and heartbreak.

The point that disturbs me is the volatility of the laws of Mexico. Three years ago, I decided the best vehicle to own and trust while on a long journey and a long stay (I hope) in Mexico. I wanted an SUV that had true off road capabilities - the 2006 Honda CRV we had was not it. Where that vehicle was made and how long I kept it were non - issues back then unless I decided to become an immigrant. Three years later a whole set of bizarre laws were introduced and then imploded with customs officials, judges, customs brokers (lawyers), in jail and licenses stripped, a lot of stunned, frauded gringos milling around - tears and heartbreak. All over a damned car or truck. Any law in this country which allows the entry of greed and an influence of power, is absolutely bound to fail.

[El Saltos]

In the 9 years we've been here the immigration laws changed ONCE, making it easier to become a permanent resident and removing the option of being a perpetual temporary resident. The vehicle import laws have not changed at all as far as I know. Volatility? I don't think so.

[Mainecoons]

What Snowyco is arguing is a rule not a law. A rule cannot overwrite or change a law.

The rules clearly refer to people exporting for business, not private vehicles for personal use.

The U.S. is not changing its laws or rules to accommodate another country. I doubt the U.S. is concerned with a blue hair stealing a vehicle and fraudulently bringing it into Mexico. The thefts are with the professional exporters, not one person taking a car across the border.

The U.S. wants the professionals who export dozens to export through customs so they can catch stolen vehicles.

Snowyco isn't arguing anything. The rules have been posted and linked and cited over and over again. They are apparently applying them to everyone now. You can argue they are writing their own laws until you are blue in the face. Until everyone gets fed up with governments doing this sort of thing, it is going to continue to happen.

In the mean time, if the importer doesn't require the export certificate, you get to decide whether you are going to comply or not and take the consequences. It really is just that simple.

The smartest thing to do is not import at all IMO. The next smartest thing is to get the export certificate also IMO.

[CHILLIN]

A trip down memory lane for El Saltos - in 2011 a foreign resident in Mexico had to have an FM2 or an FM3 - renewed every year. If you became an immigrant to Mexico - you could not have a foreign plated vehicle. Two years later you are forced to become an immigrant (Permanent Resident) after four years or leave the country and renew as a temporary resident - which is problematic and expensive for any non-Americans. To legalize your vehicle hands unsuspecting dupes, like myself, over to customs brokers, facilitators and custom agents which have worked very hard to establish a reputation as being among the most corrupt in the world, in a country well known for it's systemic corruption. http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/06/how-mexico-became-so-corrupt/277219/

Even El Presidente admitted the other day that Mexico has yet to establish the rule of law, but at least they are "working on it". The former Mexican Ambassador to the U.S. thought it will be another 10 years for that to happen. Others say that is optimistic. Don't get me wrong, I love Mexico and I love living here - but keep a low profile and keep all forms of government, the police and the law as close as you would with an Ebola carrier.

[Joco]

Snowyco isn't arguing anything. The rules have been posted and linked and cited over and over again. They are apparently applying them to everyone now. You can argue they are writing their own laws until you are blue in the face. Until everyone gets fed up with governments doing this sort of thing, it is going to continue to happen.

In the mean time, if the importer doesn't require the export certificate, you get to decide whether you are going to comply or not and take the consequences. It really is just that simple.

The smartest thing to do is not import at all IMO. The next smartest thing is to get the export certificate also IMO.

Arguing a point is not fighting.

All laws and rules must state to whom they apply. No where in these rules does it state that exporting applies to individuals taking their private vehicles into a foreign country for personal use. If it does not state that it applies to vehicles for personal use then it doesn't apply to private people. Clearly the rules state they apply to vehicles exported into the commerce of another country and one states "ultimate purchaser" which makes it clear that exporting is for dealers and wholesalers.

[moderator-2]

Enough. Joco is repeating endlessly incorrect information about this new requirement which has been imposed by SAT. It is not the U.S. enforcing their own regulation, it is SAT requiring the export certification.

Readers, google up this topic and you will find a number of expert sources citing the requirement for an individual to get an export approval from the U.S. prior to importing to Mexico.

For example:

http://www.bajainsider.com/baja-business/importingregisteringvehicales.htm#.VHUML4vF_fI

http://www.banderasnews.com/1409/nr-new-rules-for-importing-cars-into-mexico.htm

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2014/09/07/estados/025n1est

Mexicali, BC, 6 de septiembre.

La importación de vehículos procedentes de Estados Unidos se encuentra detenida en todas las aduanas del norte del país, luego que el Servicio de Administración Tributaria (SAT) dictó esta semana nuevas reglas, entre ellas la obligación de que todo vehículo extranjero que inicie un trámite definitivo de ingreso debe presentar factura original y elshipper export, un sello de la aduana de Estados Unidos que se tendrá que obtener al cruzar el automóvil a territorio mexicano.