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voltage/electrical problem?


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There is no consensus, there is only the power (no pun intended) of elimination.

1) Is your outlet grounded? If not call an electrician

2) Does the fridge work normally when plugged directly into your grounded outlet or any other grounded outlet. If yes, then it's a voltage regulator problem. If no, then it's the fridge that's the problem and you need to call a repairman.

CFE is only responsible for their lines up to and including the meter. After that it's your responsibility. I've got one more question for you. Does this only happen during certain hours of the day? If yes and you don't live in a gated community, then I would be wondering if there's something near that just started up... like construction or a taller.

 

 

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On 2/3/2018 at 2:03 PM, modeeper said:

You need a multi meter to know what your voltage is.  They're cheap.  Check the socket next time it goes off.  If it isn't 110-120V the problem is with CFE or an external connection or the home's breaker or fuse  To check the "brick" connect your multi meter to the output..  If it is 110-120 your brick is OK,  The only way you can check your refre is to plug it into an outlet from a different source.  Difficult to do if it's a big one.  Happy checking!


modeeper's advice is close.  "If it isn't 110-120V"  is good for the USA & Canada.  It is very incorrect for Mexico.  Mexico (CFE) uses Zone B standards of 127V   +/- 10%.
That means CFE says that the voltage is within specifications if it is between  114V  to  140V. 

If you or your electrician checks voltages,  a Mexican voltage measured down at 110V is a problem.    Because 110V is way low out of spec,  because any time there's an additional load on that substandard 110V line,  the voltage quickly droops to 107V or 105V.      e.g. When a Mexican CFE line is only at 110V,  just turning on a toaster, or coffee pot, or microwave oven immediately pulls that already-too-low line  down to just 107V or 105V through the whole house => causing your 'black box' protector to shut off.   Those low 105V & 107V bounce down & up events from overloaded lines are also low enough to ruin printers and some microwave ovens.
:(

Well functioning CFE lines should measure between 120V  to 132V     ~ to avoid drooping too low during peak loads in the neighborhood     and   ~to avoid flying too high when there are almost no loads in the neighborhood.
;)

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On 2/4/2018 at 1:38 PM, modeeper said:

Please explain, what's the difference in a two-pronged and a three pronged?  And when whatever it is that reaches the ground .. what happens to it next?  Does that whatever just disappear like when you empty your recycle bin, or does it kinda hibernate like a bear?  And if it does hibernate can I expect it not to repeat the cycle til next Spring?  Please help, I need a codependent. 

 Our homes can have 1 ground or 2 grounds, and often 3 grounds.

Ground #1
Just like US & Canadian power companies, CFE has one wire that comes into the house that's a ground wire - aka "neutral" - bonded to a  big ground rod  CFE drives into the ground at the base of the CFE power pole with every transformer.   CFE's earth ground ( 'neutral' ) is a real ground - connected to each & every meter and connected to every home's central breaker panel.   That CFE ground is called "Neutral" by electricians,  to distinguish it from the homeowner's  'tierra physica'  ground rods.

Ground #2
Modern CFE standards (installations in the last 7 years) require a small ground wire tied to another ground rod  out in the meter - giving "suspenders" that are added to the existing "belt" of CFE's main big ground at the transformer. ...  That gives even a 2 wired  - 2 prong outlet    both  "belt and suspenders"   of 2 separate ground rods (one at the meter, one at the transformer).

Grounds #1 and #2  are generally wired into the home as a   White  wire called neutral  (esp in Canada & the USA). ... In the USA and in Mexico,   all those white wires are connected to a single bus in the centro de carga (main breaker box),   and that white neutral bus is then further connected to both the home's earth ground bus and the CFE neutral -=> theoretically tying them all to earth ground.

Ground #3
Ground #3 is yet another additional earth ground rod driven into the property for US and Canadian homes,   plus  many Mexican homeowners also add the same homeowner's ground rod as in the USA.    That third  "in-home"  ground wire   are  the green wires that go out to outlets ...  giving two independent grounds  ( belt  AND suspenders ) at each modern outlet.

Conclusions:   Millions of older Mexican homes have run fine since the 1930's,  using just the CFE big-ground rods at the poles. ... More modern Mexican constructions have added an additional smaller ground rod  at-near the meter (grounding the  meter & meter base). ...  The most modern Mexican constructions have yet an additional 3'rd ground wire - an additonal extra "safety ground"   aka  "tierra physica"     as the 3'rd ground that Pete @johanson describes on his property.  =>  Belt,  +suspenders    + a rope  to hold up our pants.
;)

Hopefully,  this explains why Mexican homes with just 2 pronged sockets,  built in the '60's & '70's   still  work fine ... and do not burn down or catch fire.  

Many Americans & Canadians simply prefer to bring their US & Canadian standards here,  adding extra security,   in case the CFE & meter grounds fail

... and yes,  Virginia,  CFE grounds do fail sometimes - as it took us 7 trips & 7 tries to get CFE techs to finally fix their broken open ground at our block's transformer,  as I got very tired of seeing 5V to 15V coming in on their neutral (ground) line.     ... I much disliked being the ground for the entire neighborhood.     
(because that's what happens when you have the best ground in the neighborhood - power from the whole neighborhood flows through your wiring to your ground ~ which is why good electricians put that big home ground rod   only   out by the meter - keeping the neighborhood's current from feeding through your main breaker panel's tierra physica ground.)
:(

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On 2/3/2018 at 1:26 PM, cottoncarpet said:

When I purchased my new refrigerator 3 years ago, I also purchased a black box, about the size of a brick, to prevent voltage surges.  The box is labeled 2500V.  Recently, and several times a day, the box trips and the fridge stops operating.  I reset the rocker switch on the box and all returns to normal,  until the next time....might be hours or days.  My question:  is the CFE supply at fault, or my house wiring, or the box or the fridge?  I can't figure out why this would suddenly become an issue, and only in the pantry.  No electrical problems or tripped switches in the rest of the house.  Any thoughts?


All of the technical points described in my 2 prior emails could be part of the OP  @cottoncarpet  's fridge protector problem.

If the OP has low CFE voltage (say 110V - 115V),   then whenever the home's water pump turns ON,   or whenever the neighbors turn on their big pool pump,  or big air conditioner,  or big microwave oven  or even a big expresso machine,  the combination of big loads can drag cottoncarpet's  fridge  line down to too-low voltages that cause the protector to trip   OFF.

Cottoncarpet's  fridge outlet    could also have either   CFE neutral (ground - white wire) problems~faults ... or   the outlet could have home  safety-ground (green wire  tierra physica )  problems ...  that cause the protector to kick out under loads.

or
Cottoncarpet's fridge outlet,   or the power lines feeding that fridge outlet   could be having problems.

or
It could be that the black-box protector is now 3 years old,   has aged (weakened) ,   and is tripping too easily.

It takes a good VOM  multimeter,   knowledge,   some patience,   persistence,  and a good proven earth ground     to find the actual problem.

My most recent job    troubleshooting   one of these intermittent failures    took 2 hours to find - as it took time to ultimately find   & fix    a bad connection at the back of a stove,  that was intermittently dragging down the rest of the kitchen's circuits ...
:(

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1 hour ago, snowyco said:

Please explain, what's the difference in a two-pronged and a three pronged?  And when whatever it is that reaches the ground .. what happens to it next?  Does that whatever just disappear like when you empty your recycle bin, or does it kinda hibernate like a bear?  And if it does hibernate can I expect it not to repeat the cycle til next Spring?  Please help, I need a codependent. 

Um, this is a joke.  But btw, you gave the best explanation so far.

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I don't have any protection on my fridge. But I know, for sure, that the outlet is grounded and safe. Remember that a protection unit designed specifically for a refrigerator is a whole lot cheaper than replacing the fridge. It's up to you.

http://www.homedepot.com.mx/comprar/es/guadalajara-iteso/regulador-para-refrigeracion-2500-va

 

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Sounds to me like the load is too big for the voltage regulator. Most of the time, the load is directly connected to the mains, so no problem. If the voltage goes up or down, then it will attempt to compensate, but senses an overload that trips the internal breaker. Either the regulator is defective, or your fridge is using more current than the box allows.

Checking voltage, current and grounding should help determine where the problem is.

Also, many people have stated that Mexican appliances are built to tolerate this type of fluctuation, whereas US or Canadian ones are not, but I have no idea if that is true.

Just my .02$

Pete

 

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Some years ago, in Ajijic, there was a surge which destroyed all of our next door neighbor‘s TVs, refrigerator and computer. They were all appliances from the USA.  Ours survived without difficulty, and all of ours were purchased in Mexico.  We were on the same connection, from the same transformer in the street. 

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Ok, this is a great discussion. I have a small house I am remodeling in Ajijic, have 2 phase with a new meter and new 8 gauge and 6 gauge wires from the meter, in a 16 year old house, all outlets are grounded (I have a tester), brought GFCI outlets from the US for the kitchen and my Bose system, 20 amps for the 1000w appliances, new 100 amp panel. Wondering if I should consider a whole house voltage regulater. Not sure about how thr voltage fluctuates in the house, as I am not moved in yet. Bought a Killowatt 4400 to test stuff. 

I can get the whole house voltage regulator for about $100, very good brand. Feedback? And thanks!

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Based on what we're seeing recently all across lakeside during and following this year's rainy season, (we can view each system's performance and the corresponding CFE grid connection in real time and full history via the inverter online monitoring systems for voltage, frequency, and ground faults) >>> yes, definitely.    

Price for the whole house reg sounds really low - what brand and capacity is it, and it is 220 V?

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Here's a good example of one available "online locally" 

https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.mx/MLM-604573372-regulador-corrector-voltaje-toda-la-casa-isb-sola-basic-8kva-_JM?source=gps

Quite robust and used / recommended by clients with electrical engineering career backgrounds.     You need 1 per phase, so 2 for 220 V.

For homes with solar electric, the solar connection can be made "inside" the regulated zone so that the solar is then seeing and working to match stabilized voltage, better for the system and also helps to increase solar production, as grid tied systems temporarily stop producing when the outside power they are designed to match goes outside their limits, high or low.

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The Sola Basic Corrector is a solid unit - with a big constant voltage transformer & a modestly robust analogue (relays clicking) control board.   They make a bit of heat  & can be a bit noisy,  so it's best not to install them in an office or bedroom.

One client had 2 of them for his very modern home (1500W espresso maker, 1600W toaster, 1600W microwave & 1400W tea boiler + many air conditioners + pool pump , spa pump, & big spa heater).   His two Sola Corrector-8000's  worked great through 4 years of daily abuse =>  literal 100's per day of voltage swings down to 105V, as his neighborhood transformer was slowly dying +plus    his solar system's flaky main 220V cable connections (that ultimately burned 18 inches of plastic covering off the solar system's 220V wires)  that daily jounced his household voltages.

After 4 years of abuse,  both SB-8000's failed - dragging CFE line voltages to a constant weak 105V.   Sola Basic is charging $75-$125  each to fix them, so the client hesitated & delayed ... In the meantime,  running with no voltage conditioners,  the client just smoked an expensive HP all-in-one printer-scanner-copier =>   Lo barato cuesta caro.

The cheap thing ~ultimately~ costs us the most.

;)
 

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Thank you all for your feedback... I think the one I was looking at online was a Zero Point brand, was recommended to me by an electrician, but he is not familiar with the voltage variances in MX. Sold on Ebay. 

I am seriously considering a few panels of solar (maybe 6), as I was on a solar offgrid system in CO some years ago. Friends who have panels tell me that the microinvertor will act as a voltage regulator itself. I don't want to duplicate efforts, but would hate my Bose systems to get fried. 

I think I will do some more research when I come 2/22. 

 

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A surge protector is different from a voltage regulator.  A voltage regulator can have some surge protection but usually they are pretty pathetic for surge protection. A voltage regulator just adjusts the voltage up or down.  I use them on my non grounded outlets (also called two wire) with no loss of function. A surge protector using MOVs for surge protection needs a ground. Other type of better surge protectors exist but most use MOVs.  If you buy a surge protector don't buy one with less than 500 joules rating. Just looked at my small voltage regulators and while they say they have surge protection the rating is 50 joules which is useless for the most part. Some UPSs  (also called battery backup) say they have surge protection but many don't have the joules rating to be effective.  I run a surge protector than a voltage regulator in the new part of the house which has grounds.  I just use a voltage regulator for the old two wire wiring in the old part of the house. A simple and safe way to find out if your 3 prong sockets are really grounded (mine are not in old part of house) is to get a surge protector with a ground light on it which is very common on medium and higher end units.Walmart has such units. I only use a UPS where needed for example on my security system as bad guys cut the power wires sometimes. UPS units are expensive and the battery dies usually after a year or so so be warned.  Make sure your UPS or voltage regulator is rated for the load you are plugging in.  For example a UPS unit for a fridge would cost a fortune but you could purchase a special voltage regulator for a fridge at a much lower price. My opinion is your fridge is just fine on its own. Mexican fridges are tough. Folks please see Mr Google for more info.  You don't have to be to technical to understand this subject.  Lots of much better than mine explanations  are available on the internet. Some info on this string is wrong I mean no offense to anyone.  My background is I was a member of the technical staff at HP.

 

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8 minutes ago, lcscats said:

 A surge protector using MOVs for surge protection needs a ground. Other type of better surge protectors exist but most use MOVs.  If you buy a surge protector don't buy one with less than 500 joules rating. I run a surge protector than a voltage regulator in the new part of the house which has grounds.  I just use a voltage regulator for the old two wire wiring in the old part of the house. A simple and safe way to find out if your 3 prong sockets are really grounded (mine are not in old part of house) is to get a surge protector with a ground light on it which is very common on medium and higher end units. Walmart has such units. Make sure your UPS or voltage regulator is rated for the load you are plugging in.  For example a UPS unit for a fridge would cost a fortune but you could purchase a special voltage regulator for a fridge at a much lower price. My opinion is your fridge is just fine on its own. Mexican fridges are tough.

 

I cherry picked your post LCS and bolded what I think is really important and that's pretty much the way my house operates. I am a little paranoid about my computer though, so I have a surge protector, then a voltage regulator and then another surge protector into which printer and computer, etc are plugged.

I know Mexican fridges are tough but would you plug one into an outlet that is not grounded?

And speaking of grounds, isn't their purpose to shunt extra voltage away? Or does that only happen when it hits a voltage regulator or a good surge protector? I am getting confused by some of the posts here. And, after the installation of my solar panels last week, I now have three physical grounding posts wacked into the ground on my property, another one going from the meter into the ground and, supposedly, another one below the transformer that connects the line to the meter.

 

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Cottoncarpet, you have never said whether you know for sure if your 3 prong outlet is grounded.

And, yes, there are voltage regulators that have fuses... not all, but some. I have the kind that you change the fuse on... one for my computer stuff and one for my TV. Steren sells the fuses and was the only store that did although I tried Walmart, Benno's and Computerland before Steren's. Live and learn.

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17 hours ago, Honorandfaith said:

Thank you all for your feedback... I think the one I was looking at online was a Zero Point brand, was recommended to me by an electrician, but he is not familiar with the voltage variances in MX. Sold on Ebay. 

I am seriously considering a few panels of solar (maybe 6), as I was on a solar offgrid system in CO some years ago. Friends who have panels tell me that the microinvertor will act as a voltage regulator itself. I don't want to duplicate efforts, but would hate my Bose systems to get fried. 

I think I will do some more research when I come 2/22. 

 

In a grid-tied system, the micro-inverters simply work to match the grid , within normal ranges, >>>  they don't function as regulators.    They will shut down to protect themselves when tolerances are out of whack.     Feel free to PM for more info / questions.

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